Bf 109E blue air intake cover?

[Fin]

There were some early Bf 109E with the RLM 70 - RLM 71 scheme popular in 1939 that apparently had the front cover of the air intake painted blue. For example:

http://www.warbirdphotographs.com/LCBW14/Me109E-Red3-Prewar-1f-s.jpg

http://www.warbirdphotographs.com/LCBW14/Me109E-Red3-Prewar-4f-s.jpg

The above images seem to be captured from a contemporary colour film which you can find here:

http://archiv-akh.de/filme/89#1

You can see this clearly from 25:00 for example.

 

Now, my question: does anyone know what sort of blue this might have been?

One thing it doesn`t appear to be is the RLM 65 (the underside colour is clearly different in the film). I`d rather not just guess this based on those old shots so any help would be appreciated. Also, if anyone knows better pictures that show this I`d be interested to hear that too.

[Stew Dapple]

Hmm, looks closer to RLM24 Dunkelblau which would be available from stores as it was used for the wing staff flight colours and, I think, for the oxygen-related equipment in the cockpit. Can't think of any reason why the intake cover should be painted that colour though, especially as it seems not to be the case with the majority of the aircraft in the film. Red 3 and Red 4 don't indicate staff flight markings so unless it was specific to one staffel as an ID thing there's no obvous reason for it to be painted a different colour...

 

Cheers,

 

Stew

[JPuente54]

I have to agree with Stew about the color being RLM 24 Dunkleblau, and why. The reason(s) for it being blue; well, that is a bit of a mystery. I'd just go with Stew's suggestion and not worry about it.

Joe

[JackG]

SAM Modellers Datafile 09 - The Messerschmitt Bf-109 Part 1 Prototype to 'E' Variants

In the above publication, the author makes note of the blue on the intake, and suggests possibly aircraft belonging to the Geschwaderstab - though that goes against what we see in the linked film because both it's title and red tactical numbers indicate 2nd staffel.  The RLM24 blue Stew has provided is indeed the tactical colour used during wartime for the 4th staffel of fighter units (in all Gruppen).

 

Only thing I can add is early German wartime film had trouble with their Agfa product when capturing colours outside.  You can also see a lot of purple and other splotchy colours where we know there should be green - though that does not completely explain why the surrounding edge of the intake stands out so much in some instances here.

 

regards,

Jack

 

[Fin]

Thank you so much for your replies! Now that I look at it, RLM 24 seems like a good candidate.

 

4 hours ago, Stew Dapple said:

Hmm, looks closer to RLM24 Dunkelblau which would be available from stores as it was used for the wing staff flight colours and, I think, for the oxygen-related equipment in the cockpit. Can't think of any reason why the intake cover should be painted that colour though, especially as it seems not to be the case with the majority of the aircraft in the film. Red 3 and Red 4 don't indicate staff flight markings so unless it was specific to one staffel as an ID thing there's no obvous reason for it to be painted a different colour...

Stew, I`ve noticed that other planes in that film have that element painted the same with the rest of the fuselage. However, besides it being a colourful spot on an otherwise pretty dull camo scheme, I am interested in this because both the Romanian and Yugoslav machines (delivered in 1939) seem to have the cover painted that way. If you look at black and white pictures like this one with Romanian aircraft:

https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Bf-109E/FARR/pages/Messerschmitt-Bf-109E3-FARR-7-Grupul-Yellow-6-Germany-1941-01.html

or this Yugoslav machine:

https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Bf-109E/RYAF/pages/Messerschmitt-Bf-109E3-VVKJ-6-Fliegerregiment-32-Gruppe-L65-WNr-2507-Yugoslavia-1941-01.html

you`ll notice that the front cover is indeed a lighter colour. You may be under the impression that it`s natural metal. The instructions of Lift Here!` decals for the Yugoslav Emils even state that the supercharger intake should be natural metal and so does the book that I have reviewed here:

BUT! The book has a colour photograph with the first 5 Yugoslav Emils, at Regensburg, before they were flown to Zemun. The supercharger intakes of the first two planes in that line are visible and they are blue (as for the German machine from the film). Even better, the book has, at the beginning, several black and white photos of the same batch of planes taken with the occasion of their delivery. The contrast you can see in those b&w photos between that front cover and the fuselage colour is very much like the one you can see in the b&w photos I have posted above with the Romanian and Yugoslav aircraft. Therefore, I`m leaning towards the conclusion that where you can see this colour difference in b&w photos of the early Romanian and Yugoslav Emils that piece is probably blue (and - based on this discussion - probbaly RLM 24).

 

Still, does anyone know of colour photographs of the early Bf 109E that show the front cover of this intake in natural metal?

Edited April 21, 2018 by Fin

[JPuente54]

Jack, your knowledge of early color camera film is definitely better than mine: What I know could be printed in very large letters on a very small pinhead. I have seen some of those photos over the years very much as you described with the splotchy colors. However, the blue in the photos linked by Fin are very well defined, not blobby or a splotch. So, are most likely that blue color. It is intriguing, though. The why will stay a bit of a mystery for awhile. I have learned in the last several months of logging on this site that much of what we knew about Luftwaffe(and other AF, and, Naval AF) colors was wrong; or, very incomplete.

Joe

[Black Knight]

Could it actually be blue tape; akin to a duct [aka duck] tape?

The panels join there through the intake and in the second photo it looks like a roll/tube of blue something on top of the rear part. Perhaps blue tape to seal over the panel gap, in the way later in the war US Marine Corsairs had front panels sealed with duct tape

[Kaldrack]

The photo cited in the above post from the mentioned book looks very much like a colourised photo. There is no saying what the reason was for the artist to colour the front of the supercharger intake as blue. There is also nothing to say whether the photo was colourised during the wartime period or post-war. The colourist could have been using his experience and recollection of when the photo was taken or the blue could be his interpretation of the light colour in the original black and white photo...

 

 

A great many Bf109Es from the 1939 period have a light coloured frontal supercharger intake section. Although no colour proof exists I am of the opinion that these lighter versions were painted in the same light grey heat resistant paint as the cowling gun troughs. The thin and delicate structures would have required at least some protection from the hot exhaust fumes that would be blowing over them during operation. We see that later on a black heat resistant paint was used on the front of the supercharger intakes. The same type of paint applied to the areas most exposed to exhaust heat on other Luftwaffe aircraft. This black heat resistant paint was also used on the exhaust surrounds on Bf 109 Es painted in the 02/71 scheme.

 

Below is a still from the original film which is seen in good quality on a few WW2 related German language DVDs in my collection. BTW they show 2./JG 77 and their Staffelkapitän, Oblt. Hannes Trautloft at Juliusberg in 1939. Much of what we see is staged for the camera. Here we see Trautloft advising a Blackman about some adjustments to the flap/aileron of Red 4 which seems to suggest that at the time Trautloft was flying this particular machine. A few of the other clips seem to suggest this too:

 

 

We know that Trauloft was flying the usual Staffelkapitän's mount Red 1 during this period. We do not see this aircraft in the film which leads me to suspect that it was under repair and he was flying Red 4 as a temporary  replacement.

 

I have some further research to undertake, but I have a theory about the blue intakes seen on the two aircraft appearing in the Juliusberg film. Failing that it's also possible that the particular brand of early heat resistant paint used on the front of the supercharger intakes came in a blue colour... 

 

 

Edited April 21, 2018 by Kaldrack

[Fin]

Kaldrack, that`s a very useful post, thank you! Indeed, that is the colour photo of the Yugoslav Emils I was referring to. It would be disappointing to know it was colorized. The book does not describe it as such and it`s credited to another aviation author and collector of wartime photographs so it probably exists as such (and was presumably not taken from a ww2 era poster or magazine).

 

Quote

the same light grey heat resistant paint as the cowling gun troughs.

Do you know a colour photo that shows this part clearly?

[Kaldrack]

The colourisation is quite poor in some areas of the photo. It has all the tell tale signs... A distinct lack of colour variation on the main areas. A very limited colour palette used. The colouring has gone over the edges on some parts. Especially the wheel chocks.

 

The gun trough colour can be seen on a few examples on the 2./JG 77 film linked above. It’s a light grey colour. I have a period Messerschmitt document that clearly states heat resistant paint is to be applied to the gun troughs. Often erroneously painted yellow on profiles and model kits that have followed them as a source.

[Fin]

Quote

The colourisation is quite poor in some areas of the photo. It has all the tell tale signs... A distinct lack of colour variation on the main areas. A very limited colour palette used. The colouring has gone over the edges on some parts. Especially the wheel chocks.

Something about the wheel chocks in particular did not seem fine to me either, but I`m not in a position to judge old photographs and editing techniques on them. Pity ... Especially since I have two 109s in progress, one Yugoslav and one Romanian and I was glad I was making progress in deciding what colours to use. Stuck again!

 

Quote

The gun trough colour can be seen on a few examples on the 2./JG 77 film linked above.

I`m guessing you mean at about 05:20. I`m not sure which is meant to be the blue there though. Do you have something clearer to show by any chance?

[Kaldrack]

The light grey gun troughs on the cowling can be seen to good effect at 7:09.

[Stew Dapple]

I thought the colour of the cowling gun-throughs in the film looked very much like RLM02, in any case not the same colour as the front of the intake on some of the aircraft. 

 

I don't think it's tape, as the gap at the back of the cover is still visible and I'm not sure about it being some form of heat-resistant paint as (and I admit I am stretching the limit of my engineering nous here) I'm guessing the front of the supercharger intake wouldn't be exposed to any significant amount of heat?

 

Cheers,

 

Stew

[Kaldrack]

The Kriegsmarine also utilised various colours of heat-resistant paints on the tops of its ship's funnels. These particular paints came in various shades as can be seen in photos: Black, Metallic (aluminumbronze) and light grey. The Black and light grey can also be seen in use on various photos of Luftwaffe aircraft. Mostly around the areas that would be exposed to heat during operation. I very much doubt that these specialist paints had a standard RLM or Kriegsmarine equivalent shade.

 

Below is the text sourced from an original period Messerschmitt document showing the dimensions of the upper cowling of the Bf 109E. It is the caption which points directly to the upper cowling gun troughs:

 

 

We can see in numerous photos that the exhaust staining got pretty close to the thin and complicated structure of the Bf 109 Es supercharger intake. The heat probably got much closer. So much so that they deemed it worthy of painting the front of the supercharger in the same heat resistant paint as the exhaust areas:

 

 

 

 

 

Here we see that just the supercharger intake has received the heat resistant black paint. Note also the light grey heat resistant paint on the upper cowling gun troughs:

 

 

Here we see the same light grey paint used on the gun troughs and the supercharger intake:

 

 

Light grey paint on gun troughs:

 

 

Light grey paint on the exhaust area:

 

 

The black paint could cover a much larger area as seen here on this Legion Condor example. It also extended along the sides of the fuselage sides in the areas most affected by the exhaust staining/heat:

 

 

Here we see the black heat resistant paint used on other Luftwaffe aircraft:

 

Dip behind the exhaust in this Hs 126:

 

 

Behind the exhaust on the Ju 88. The smaller area on the later versions, but larger on the A-1/A-5.

 

A-1:

 

 

Later version:

 

 

Bf 110:

 

 

Below is the evidence that makes me suspect that there was an earlier blue variety of the specialist heat resistant paint. These captions are taken from original Messerschmitt documents which show the dimensions of various elements of the exhaust sub-assemblies of the Bf 109 E series. They specifically mention a "blue" to be painted on the parts. One mentions the "blue" paint to be applied specifically to welded parts on the exhaust area. Perhaps this "blue" paint was the earlier term used to specify heat resistant paint?

 

 

 

We can see from various photos that this black, grey or blue heat resistant paint was not applied to all the areas to be protected from heat on every Bf 109. Not all Bf 109s were built at the same factory or at the exact same time. It is clear that various types/brands/colours of this paint existed and it was applied to different areas on different aircraft. No set standard appears to have been used. For the most part, the heat-resistant areas were overpainted when the aircraft was repainted. Rarely was this heat resistant paint reapplied to the specific areas after a full repaint.

 

The above leaves me in no doubt that the blue paint we see on the supercharger intakes was nothing more than a particular brand of specialist heat resistant paint or engine lacquer which came in a blue colour... Another brand came in a light grey and another came in a black colour.

[Fin]

Ok, but strictly referring to the evidence of the known contemporary colour (not colorized!) photographs/films the only two paints we can see used on the supercharger intake`s cover are blue and black (when they are not painted in the colour of the fuselage or yellow - once the engine cowling got painted that way). There is no colour photo/film showing a light grey or natural metal. Correct?

Edited April 22, 2018 by Fin

[Kaldrack]

Please see the non colourised photos I posted above and the film at the 7:09 mark which I already pointed out. Clearly light grey...

Edited April 22, 2018 by Kaldrack

[Kaldrack]

Ah, yes, you mean the supercharger intake. Well simply looking at the tone in the black and white photos it is clear to see that the gun troughs and intakes in some of the images are painted in the same grey colour. Makes sense? 

Edited April 22, 2018 by Kaldrack

[Fin]

I think the shot at 25:14 shows the guns troughs best. On the other hand, please look at about 20:00. Does it not seem to you that the colour of the gun trough is the same with that of the interior (which would be RLM 02)?

 

In any case, I just want to say that I`m not prolonging this for the sake of the argument, but because I`m still not sure what actual paint to use on the actual model. Could at least the natural metal theory be discarded? It`s the most convenient, but so far I haven`t seen anything to confirm it (be it photo or document).

 

 

[JackG]

After all that has been posted, I'm convinced the area in question is some sort of 'special' paint applied for it's heat resistant properties, and not a tactical marking.  I can think of three reasons for it's application:

- protect the metal

- hide the bare metal

- and possibly act a s a primer for further painting?

 

There is conversation about this in WW2 German armour circles as well, in particular the main gun barrel.  All I've seen though is mention of a dark grey paint with no associated RAL code, but is considered to be a lacquer.  In this case, replacement gun barrels were delivered to units in this state, and it was up to repair shops  to paint over to match the colour of the vehicle.

 

regards,

Jack

 

 

[Kaldrack]

Give me some time and I will try to extract a good still from the high quality version of the movie I have so you can see the grey better. I do not think it is RLM 02. It looks like a light grey. RLM 02, although is considered a grey it has a slight beige tinge to it. The grey heat paint looks more like the early L40/52 grey. I doubt even an RAL code was stipulated and it’s probably just the colour that the particular company which produced that grey heat paint mixed it to. You’d probably need to mix a custom colour, but to be honest I think a pot of RLM 77 would suffice...

[Stew Dapple]

I can't help but think if we were looking at some heat-resistant paint it's use would be normal for all 109s or at least be widespread rather than unusual as seems to be the case, and I am not convinced that the front of the supercharger intake would be more susceptible to heat than the part of the intake directly behind it - if so, why would only the front part be painted with heat-resistant paint?

 

Fair enough that the term 'heat-resistant' might be stipulated for the paint used directly around the exhausts and the gun-troughs on the cowling on a factory diagram, but I would expect this to be far more common, if not universal, were the heat-resistance the defining factor of the paintwork here and that is clearly not the case. The aircraft in the film don't have the areas around the exhaust painted in a different colour as far as I can see so it's a bit of a reach to suggest that they have the intake painted blue for this reason on a couple of the aircraft and not all of them while the exhaust areas had in the meantime been repainted in the 'normal' camouflage colours and the gun troughs left in what still looks to me like RLM02 and not just a random 'light grey'.

 

Cheers,

 

Stew

 

 

[Crimea River]

I was under the impression that the supercharge intake was most often left natural metal, possibly to prevent paint chips from being ingested into the supercharger (speculation only). I don't understand the logic of using heat resistant paint here as the proximity with the exhausts is actually further away than other parts such as the wing leading edge and the area between the intake and exhausts.

 

As for colour pics, nothing definitive but here is one:

 

 

 

[Kaldrack]

Ok, firstly, the gentlemen who some years ago now explained to me the use of heat resistant paint on the exhaust areas on Luftwaffe aircraft was Guttorm Fjeldstad who is one of the restorers of the Ju 88 A-1 in Norway. They found the clearly defined section of heat resistant "Black" paint on the rear nacelles behind the exhaust of the real Ju 88 A-1 they are currently restoring. This led me to look elsewhere on other Luftwaffe aircraft for similar applications of the heat resistant black paint. I have found the use of such "Black" heat resistant paint on other Luftwaffe aircraft as pointed out in my previous post above.

 

The application of this black paint on the exhaust areas and the supercharger intake is not a rare occurrence. Anyone with a sizable photographic database of Bf 109 Es or Bf 110s can see that it was actually quite common. Although not seen on all aircraft, this is no reason to suggest that it's application was not normal. I would be more inclined to suggest that it's application was more common than those without the black/grey paint especially in 1940 if you remove the clearly repainted aircraft from the equation. As previously stated not all Bf 109s were built at the same factory or at the same time. Not all Bf 109s built in the various factories would ahere to the exact same practices of markings or protective paint application. That is clear from the available photographic reference. Otherwise they would all have the black paint applied in the discussed areas.

 

The supercharger intake was a complex structure. It contained a set of thin grills which directed the airflow into the interior supercharger. This structure was probably more likely to be affected by exhaust heat than the guage of aluminium sheeting used to skin the wings or the other cowling panels. Has anyone here actually tested the heat emitted by the exhausts in the area around the supercharger intake? The designers obviously did at some point during the design and development process and they deemed it neccesary to protect the supercharger intake with a heat resistant paint. Although, like most Luftwaffe conundrums no actual documentary evidence exists to prove that it was painted in the same "black" heat resistant paint as the exhausts, it is simply a case of 1+1=2. Because as can be clearly seen in this and other particular colour photos the supercharger intake was painted in the same colour paint as the exhaust areas:

 

 

What other reason would there be for the supercharger to be painted in that same black colour? There was a reason why this part was treated differently to the other areas. It certainly has nothing to do with the previously suggested Geschwaderstab (blue marking) line of thought. The Bf 109s seen in the film are clearly from 2 staffel of JG 77... Also who is to say that the front of the supercharger intake was not constructed as a sub-assembly by another factory and delivered already in a specified heat resistant coating? This could be the reason why we see different colours used on the gun troughs and superchargers on the same machine. The different factories sourced a different brand of heat resistant paint...

 

Regarding the colour of the gun troughs. Colour analysis of reference material is a subjective matter and it's perfectly fine for people to have their own opinions. However, I know what RLM 02 looks like and the colour grey seen on the gun troughs is not RLM 02. It is clearly a much lighter grey similar in hue to "L40/52".

 

From the film we see RLM 02 used on the engine support mount:

 

 

The same here on this image and the entire aircraft in the background:

 

 

From the same colour film we see the light grey coloured gun trough which is clearly a lighter grey:

 

 

So while I appreciate that this is not the most perfect situation with mountains of rock-solid evidence to prove beyond doubt what we are looking at here. I do believe that given the evidence that I have supplied above it is perfectly fair and plausible to suggest that the supercharger intake was painted in a heat resistant paint as per the exhaust areas. Can anyone provide a better explanation as to why they would be specifically painted either black, blue or grey?

Edited April 23, 2018 by Kaldrack

[Graham Boak]

I think that you need a better reason why it requires heat-resistant paint at all, before regarding it as "fair and plausible".  Plus a good reason why it is such an awful un-aerodynamic fit!  Could it be some kind of external cover applied when on the ground?  With the louvred front to allow for ground running of the engine?  Note from the close-up of the JG27 nose that the lower flange of this part needs the small immediately-lower panel to be (at least partially) unfastened and raised out of position so that the flange can be slipped underneath.

[Kaldrack]

It's perfectly plausible to me. I'm quite comfortable with the findings. No other explanation even comes close to justifying why they were painted black/grey/blue. Most Luftwaffe aircraft had at least some kind of heat protection around the exhaust areas. The supercharger intake is in the vicinity of extreme exhaust heat. It makes sense that it would be treated with such. Others need to come up with better reasons as to why it's not plausible at this point.

 

It's clearly not a cover while the aircraft is on the ground. The component is actually painted with a black, grey or blue paint. That is how the part was fastened in flight and on the ground. Take a look at these original surviving examples: