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French Cross of Lorraine, red or blue?


Red Dog

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Just been researching a possible next project, a 1/72 Free French Hurricane Mk.I in desert camo.

I have  Print Scale's Hawker Hurricane decal set (72-022) which consists of foreign operated Hurricanes as well as Berna Decals 'Hurricane Mk.I in Alsace' (BD72-81).

 

The problem is Print Scale has the Cross of Lorraine (the cross on the white roundel) as red whereas Berna Decals has it as blue (both sheets have the same plane, serial Z 4434).

 

A quick search on the net has not solved my problem as profiles of Free French Hurricanes have both red and blue crosses.

 

I'm no expert at interpreting B & W period photos so need some help.

I know the french roundel has blue at its center therefore it could be blue but the cross on the Free French flag is red.

 

(From the Travel France online website, Cross of Lorraine - Origin and Symbolism)

 

"The Cross of Lorraine was adopted on July 1, 1940 by General de Gaulle, as the symbol of France Libre - Free French Forces during WWII. The Free French Forces added a red Cross of Lorraine against the white background of their tricolor flag".
 

So what is it

Red or Blue?

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Red Dog
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on 29 October 1941 De Gaulle invited all French pilots in England to attend RAF Manston to announce the formation of the first entirely 'French' squadron in the RAF, 340 Sqn 'Ile de France'. Cdt Mouchotte suggested painting a Cross of Lorraine in a badge on all the unit's Spits - and illustrated what he was proposing in his log-book - in colour. The relevant log-book page is reproduced in the latest issue of 'Aces ' magazine....it is red.

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Thanks FalkeEins,

Seems a pretty big mistake for a french company to make.

Berna's decals look superb on the sheet but I'll have to use Print Scale's Crosses of Lorraine.

Thanks for the help.

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Not Hurricanes at all but....

 

both Airfix Blenheim IV kits have come with Free French markings.  In the original boxing the crosses of Lorraine were red, in the recent kit the transfer sheet offers both red and blue crosses, leaving the modeller to make the final choice.  A footnote in the painting instructions says, "Ongoing research suggests these were actually blue rather than the more commonly illustrated red and that the Armee de l'Air roundels and markings were applied using RAF paints." 

 

HTH

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Just like in Seahawk's post, not Hurricanes but ...

On the old Carpena 72-49 FAFL set here all Lorraine crosses but for one plane were given as blue (white 9 H.75 A-3, Lysander Mk.II P9184, Gladiator Mk.I K7937). The only exception was Bleinheim Mk.IVF T1675, which had white bordered red crosses on fuselage. Cheers

Jure

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1 hour ago, Red Dog said:

The problem is Print Scale has the Cross of Lorraine (the cross on the white roundel) as red whereas Berna Decals has it as blue (both sheets have the same plane, serial Z 4434).

 

0354-Hawker+Hurricane+Mk.I+Trop..jpg

in this case, blue, as the cross matches the rudder stripes

and

Hawker-Hurricane-MkI-Trop-Armee-de-lAir-

this is harder to judge,  also note the difference in underside colour of the Z4434 compared to plane behind, as well as the difference between faded and fresh uppersurface colours..

from

Hawker-Hurricane-MkI-Trop-Armee-de-lAir-

 

as the centre of the upperwing roundel matches the cross and fin stripe, and the blue is at the front, as any colour pics of French aircraft will confirm

D520BIGcorrected.jpg

 

 

1 hour ago, Red Dog said:

A quick search on the net has not solved my problem as profiles of Free French Hurricanes have both red and blue crosses.

 

my thoughts on profiles are my sig line...

I'm sure there are both,  and judging from BW photos is always based on other factors

 

HTH

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28 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

 

 

Hawker-Hurricane-MkI-Trop-Armee-de-lAir-

 

as the centre of the upperwing roundel matches the cross and fin stripe, and the blue is at the front, as any colour pics of French aircraft will confirm

 

If you can make that out you have better eyes than me  - I hardly see any tonal difference between the roundel ring and centre, and wouldn't trust myself a comparison of roundel to rudder, due to the distance involved. This is no criticism, it merely emphasises that artists/decal producers may have to make a judgement call at times. The first picyou showed is luckily much easier :happy:

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7 hours ago, Seahawk said:

Not Hurricanes at all but....

 

both Airfix Blenheim IV kits have come with Free French markings.  In the original boxing the crosses of Lorraine were red, in the recent kit the transfer sheet offers both red and blue crosses, leaving the modeller to make the final choice.  A footnote in the painting instructions says, "Ongoing research suggests these were actually blue rather than the more commonly illustrated red and that the Armee de l'Air roundels and markings were applied using RAF paints." 

 

HTH

On the Blenheim subject, there was a discussion on a modelling french forum a couple of years ago (I think) regarding the colour of the cross, and it seems that initialy the first crosses were painted red, but it seemed to create some concern as the planes could be mistaken for non-fighting planes (red cross) and it was decided that the crosses should be blue.

 

There was a relic on display at the Musée de L'air at Le Bourget in 2016, supposedly coming from a Blenheim fuselage, but more probably from a wing.

 

m39PAEI.jpg

 

RtakkqU.jpg

 

HTH,

 

Laurent

Edited by silberpferd
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I was  writing this earlier....  Blenheim

 

 

Free_French_ground_crew_work_on_Bristol_

 

Quote

Free French ground crew working on a Bristol Mercury XV radial engine on a Bristol Blenheim Mk.IV bomber at an airfield in North Africa.

 

google image 'croix de lorraine' show mostly red,  but other colours turn up.   Work from a photo,  without any reference to rudder stripes or roundels (and as the Hurricanes show that not easy) , it hard to say for  sure.

 

 

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13 minutes ago, silberpferd said:

On the Blenheim subject, there was a discussion on a modelling french forum a couple of years ago (I think) regarding the colour of the cross, and it seems that initialy the first crosses were painted red, but it seemed to create some concern as the planes could be mistaken for non-fighting planes (red cross) ans it was decided that the crosses should be blue.

 

There was a relic on display at the Musée de L'air at Le Bourget in 2016, supposedly coming from a Blenheim fuselage, but more probably from a wing.

 

 

 

 

 

HTH,

 

Laurent

That makes sense ...

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8 hours ago, Red Dog said:

Print Scale's Hawker Hurricane decal set (72-022) which consists of foreign operated Hurricanes as well as Berna Decals 'Hurricane Mk.I in Alsace' (BD72-81).

 

The problem is Print Scale has the Cross of Lorraine (the cross on the white roundel) as red whereas Berna Decals has it as blue (both sheets have the same plane, serial Z 4434).

 

Right,  A quick search for the Print  Scale  sheet

http://www.printscale.org/product_31.html

shows why Print Scale are not highly regarded....  they make  way to many sheets to have researched them properly,  as this one shows,  down to the basic errors in stating which Mark is which, and the SEAC planes  (no-one here has seen the 'red elephant' A-A photo, it's from an old profile booklet)

see

 

The Egyptian plane is shown in desert colours,  but has  a Sky band,

see here

 

So I'd be  inclined to dismiss the Print Scale as Dodgy stuff derived from pretty profiles,  the Berna sheet   seems better,  though they says BG707  is a Mk.I..... it's a IIB..

 

There are photos of most of the Berna sheets subject floating around the web,  some are above.

 

HTH

T

 

 

 

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Crikey, just when I thought I had it solved.

Thanks everyone for your input.

Seems that there were cases for both. Understandable some of the reasons for both.

Red as it is on the flag, changed due to confusion with recognition.

 

Thanks Seahawk, just looked up the Airfix Blenheim Mk.IV with French markings and it does come with both, so modeller discretion there (good on Airfix).

 

Troy your comments about Print Scale accuracy can only be confirmed by those who know but yes they do make plenty of decals covering a whole myriad of aircraft. Point taken. Will be wary in the future.

Berna's do look fantastic. Looks like I will be using theirs after all.

 

Seems like this is a case as with most other questions regarding colours & markings, if its not bleeding obvious then no one can call you out as being wrong. As there was a case for both its then down to the time frame of when the change came, but as we know changes may or may not happen in the field.

For me no one with any expertise in French markings from WWII will be viewing my models, but I do like be somewhere near the mark.

 

Cheers all.

 

 

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Putting two and two together you could argue that red is valid for early aircraft later changed to blue as per the museum piece and for the reasons stated.

 

But what I want to know is how the French felt about flying a bomber named after a famous French defeat? :huh:

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15 hours ago, silberpferd said:

On the Blenheim subject, there was a discussion on a modelling french forum a couple of years ago (I think) regarding the colour of the cross, and it seems that initialy the first crosses were painted red, but it seemed to create some concern as the planes could be mistaken for non-fighting planes (red cross) and it was decided that the crosses should be blue.

 

HTH,

 

Laurent

Is it possible to give a date for when the crosses changed from red to blue? That might be helpful with depicting certain aircraft.  :unsure:

Steve.

Edited by stevehnz
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13 minutes ago, stevehnz said:

Is it possible to give a date for when the crosses changed from red to blue? That might be helpful with depicting certain aircraft. :unsure:

Steve.

Unfortunately, I cannot. All I remember is that the red crosses did not last long, and they switched to blue before all planes (Blenheim) received the crosses, IIRC.

 

Laurent

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In Les forces aériennes françaises libres 1940-43, published by Le fana de l'aviation magazine, there is a short article by Rémi Baudru about the colour of Lorraine cross. Apparently the first instruction for new markings were issued as early as beginning of July 1940 by Admiral Muselier. Blue circle with white cross of Lorraine was to be painted beside regular French cocarde. Obviously, these instruction had never been followed. First crosses actually painted on aircraft were those on Free French Lysanders in Douala, Cameroon, that had been used in combat against Vichy Gabon. These crosses were white (there is a photo of Lysander included with white cross on vertical tail) but those on a Blenheim and two D.520 of the same units were either white or white bordered red ones, probably original white crosses painted over. There is a photo of Blenheim T1875 with such markings with Z5728 in a background, marked with standard blue cross in white circle. Apparently Blenheims of Escadrille Topic were the first aircraft to be systematically marked with blue crosses of Lorraine in white circles. This appears to be a general rule for Free French aircraft with plenty of exceptions of course. Cheers

Jure

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Regretfully I cannot provide the definite answer, John. However, variatio delectat so unique and non-regimental aircraft are the most interesting from modeller's point of view. Noelh, cross of Lorraine predated Franco-Prussian war by about four centuries. Otherwise I agree, France suffered humiliating defeat during that war and at least at the beginning considered the first world war as the second round of 1870-71 conflict. Cheers

Jure

Edited by Jure Miljevic
missing word ˝war˝ in the last sentence added
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