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P23B Karas 1/72


maverick9

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I am going to start this model in 1/72. Anyone could help me with colours? I use Tamiya paints and was wondering about which may I select. Also making some mixes!

I would also appreciate some photos, thanks :)

Edited by maverick9
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For 'early' khaki (Field Drab) XF-52 Flat Earth. For 'late' khaki a burnt umber type colour e.g., Vallejo 941/rack number 148. Don't think there is a Tamiya match.

For blue grey undersides US Ghost Gray, XF-19 or Compass Gray, XF-53.

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There was or still there is a debate between Polish modellers or aviation historitians about the colours. In general there is a fraction of brown almost like RAF Dark Earth and fraction closer to US Oliver Drab (but still more brownish then OD). A bit like British military uniforms here:

Znalezione obrazy dla zapytania british military uniform

BTW - I think all my Polish models (all done some 20 years ago)  have too green colour regarding what is suggested now. 

Cheers

J-W

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I dig a while on Polish modeler fora and I have found something more informative about Polish colours. The whole article in Polish is here

http://www.modelpaint.pl/2017/09/23/polskie-khaki-cz-2-odnaleziony-wzornik-kolorow-radomskiej-fabryki-porsa/

The clue is that in archive of company, which produced paints probes of original paints were found. Making summary of this article it is said, that :

This is green (417) used for PZL machines produced before 1938

PORSA_417-300x149.jpg

This is brown (413) used in PZL to paint machines in 1938-39

PORSA_413-300x149.jpg

 

 

This is (416) LIKELY blue gray for undersides:

PORSA_416-300x143.jpg

 

 

This is blue used for strips and sometimes numbering

PORSA_412-300x150.jpg

 

Grey 407 was LKELY used as addition to blue for undersides

PORSA_407-300x164.jpg

 

Bright red for national insignia, numbers etc

PORSA_415-300x148.jpg

 

Creamy white for sport machines and gliders

 

PORSA_401-300x152.jpg

 

For me this is a sesnsational finding of today evening! 

Regards

J-W

 

 

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3 hours ago, Jure Miljevic said:

J-W, thank you very much for the colour samples! Plenty of very useful information about painting schemes for loś and karaś kits in my collection. Cheers

Jure

It looks that all PZL 37 bis (with twin fin) Loś should be almost chocolate brown but PZL P 7 and P 11 -  all in dark green close to Humbrol 75!  Early PZl 37 with single fin were in production in end of 1937 and begining of 1938 - so it is not clear how it was with them. 

Karas production ended on 15 March 1938 (http://www.samolotypolskie.pl/samoloty/2304/126/PZL-23-Karas2) , so very likely that all Karas were dark green , not brown! I am bit confused - this is completly differently than last 20 years opinion (look at the Arma Hobby, Mirage, IBG box arts - all are brown similar to Dark Earth)

Regards

J-W

 

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Currently there is opinion, that only in Karas prototype inside was left all in alu. As in PZL 37Łoś  all inside areas visible through glasses from outside were painted in camo like outsides, only parts hidden from outside were left alu (for example the rear part of fuselage)

Like in thi build

http://archiwum.plastikowe.pl/relacje/pzl-23a-karas-1-48-mirage-hobby

The art work by J.Wróbel which you shown above was done apparently before this opinion became accepted

If the true is that Karas were painted with colour "417" it should be similar to that one:

Znalezione obrazy dla zapytania wnętrze pzl 23

Cheers

J-W

 

 

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Martin, if you ask me - I do not know that... There are testimonies of pilots/crew  who name the colour of inside as khaki - but 407 could be named this way, as light khaki...or faded khaki

Regards

J-W

 

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BTW the author of this Polish article linked by JWM is GrzeM from BM forums - let him say more about the subject.

Cheers

Michael

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Hello

While we are waiting for the author to comment, here is something we all are probably familiar with:

http://www.ww2incolor.com/poland/c8d6ee046093c46a_large.html

PZL+P-37b+Los+2.jpg

These two photos do seem to be genuine colour pictures and not recently computer colourised stuff. While both photos seem to be slightly on a yellow side, the top camouflage colour (take a look at spinners) still looks brown compared to the grass. As J-W mentioned in his post, the colour in question looks like No.413.

Now take a look at this photo of P.43 ...

pzl_p43__pzl_p37_o.jpg

... found on http://odkrywca.pl/pzl-p-37-los-w-kolorze,675530.html forum.

It must have been quite a number of years since the first time I have seen this photo, probably on late AWF . It seems this copy had suffered heavy handed colour hue adjustment, resulting in far too strong cyan component. Yet when compared to the grass beneath the aircraft it looks more like dark green (No 417) than khaki. However this P.43 was one of the aircraft, ordered by Bulgaria, which had been in production until October or November 1939. So, would that be No 413, No 417, a colour, specified by Bulgaria or something completely different? Cheers

Jure

 

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Jure, you noticed it correct (about the dates) but this was export production and this made exception. 

In original paper I linked its is said (in Polish):

"Khaki (ciemnooliwkowy) 417 – choć na skanie wydaje się zbyt ciemny, jego barwa odpowiada w przybliżeniu zielonkawobrązowemu kolorowi uznawanemu za „średni khaki” używanemu przez PZL do malowania samolotów polskich w latach 1935-38 (późne P.11c, część Karasi), oraz samolotów eksportowych (m.in. PZL P.43) – aż do 1939 r. Jest praktycznie identyczny jak amerykański Olive Drab."

My translation:" Khaki (dark olive) 417 - despite it very dark appearence in scan this colour is close to "brownish green" sometimes considerd "mid khaki" which was used in PZL for painting Polish airplanes 1935-38 (late P11c and some Karaś) and to exported airplanes (among them P-43) even till 1939. It is prctically similar to US Olive Drab"

My comment is that it looks more green that OD...

Sorry that in first post I havn't mention about export exception. 

Dark colour in scan is because of white area around

Regards

W.

 

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It is true that I'm the author of the linked article (and the other, previous one on the same website on the same topic: First part of the Polish Khaki article).

Sorry for late cathing up, but due to Easter holidays and some other things I was unable to visit Forum for some time.

In general Polish military airplanes tops and side of the '30s period were painted in "khaki" colour, but for sure it had at least three variants, depending on period and paint producer. There were (at least) two of them, Nobiles from Włocławek and PORSA from Radom, and the original paint samples catalogues scans are published in these articles. Our knowledge is also built on the original airplane relics preserved in collections or found during archeological surveys. The coolest one is the whole Karaś rudder, bought recently by Polish WWII Museum from some German person who apparently aquired it in 1939 as a war trophy.

262628058262628058.jpg?itok=g7pFmj1k

980362269980362269.jpg?itok=Ys-GYovD

 

And other part, slightly deteriorated due to being buried in the earth for some 50 years or more:

karas-lampa.jpg

The rudder colour is apparently the third (latest) version of the "Polish khaki", darkest and most brown. The plane has probably been repainted during overhaul, which is confirmed also with the hand-painted number in black (original factory numbers were red and probably painted with stencils). Early produced Karaś planes were apparenly painted in more greenish (but not green!) colour similar to the olive drab called "medium [or second] Polish khaki".

Our reconstruction of these colours is as follows:

Medium Polish Khaki (for early produced Karaś):
oliwkowy482-150x150.jpg

Late Polish Khaki (for late produced or overhauled Karaś):
bronzowy469-150x150.jpg

Good representation of the "Late khaki" is the HATAKA 010 available both as acrylic and laquer (also in the set with "Early khaki" - not the "medium khaki"! - blue-grey and silver - HATAKA Polish '30s set)

The PZL 43 produced for Bulgaria is different story, as it apparently had more expensive and slightly different finish (but also all the period colour photos are variously hued, the posted here photo of the P.43 with tail smashed by the tank (really!) is for sure too blue.

 

There are also several Luftwaffe pilots statements from September 1939 who noticed that the Karaś planes were "dark brown", which was very effective camouflage for that period and environment.


I hope it helps, I'll be glad to answer other questions if something is still unclear. (and someday I'll translate these article into English :think:)

Grzegorz

Edited by GrzeM
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Thank you, Gregorz, for the explanation and the link to the first part of your article. I am glad that, while reading it, I discovered a chip for khaki PWS, suitable for RWD.8 aircraft. So, now I only have to be certain about proper colours for further two or three kits of Polish aircraft for the opening campaign of the WWII in my stash ... Cheers

Jure

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Jure, do you understand Polish enough to read my articles? If not, just ask, here or in the private message, I can help you with the colours of the other Polish airplanes.

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While I have never taken Polish lessons, Polish is Slavic language just as Slovene is with plenty of similarities between them. If article or book is about aviation, I usually manage to get through somehow, although at somewhat slow pace. Nevertheless, thank your for your offer; very probably I am going to stumble upon words or phrases beyond my linguistic skills and I will have to ask for your help. Cheers

Jure

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