Hurricane MkIIC, HV299, 73 Squadron, Libya, October 1942

[Kaldrack]

I was not quite sure where to post this, but below please find a photo from my own collection of a Hurricane with interesting markings which I am sure the modellers on this website may find of interest?

 

 

 

Edited March 23, 2018 by Kaldrack

[Admiral Puff]

Nice - thanks for that.

 

I know it's can of worms territory, but by comparing the fuselage flash with the centre of the roundel it looks as though the former is red, rather than blue and yellow as depicted elsewhere.

[Troy Smith]

2 hours ago, Kaldrack said:

I was not quite sure where to post this, but below please find a photo from my own collection of a Hurricane with interesting markings which I am sure the modellers on this website may find of interest?

 

here's good,   I note the linked pic has embed codes,  so copied those for ease of reference,

let me know if a problem and I'll edit it out. 

Great pic,  is there a story to it?

 

1 hour ago, Admiral Puff said:

but by comparing the fuselage flash with the centre of the roundel it looks as though the former is red, rather than blue and yellow as depicted elsewhere.

note the photo look to be orthochrome type film,  and that the roundel outer ring is also dark, so perhaps the flash is red/yellow?

 

this looks to be red/blue.

 

 

@tonyot  did a build here

https://www.largescaleplanes.com/articles/article.php?aid=2092

 

 

Quote

the 73 Sqn flash was measured out and masked off on the fuselage sides. Using the a reference photo as a guide and comparing the shades of this flash to those of the dull wartime roundels it appears that this was applied using bright pre-war colours so Humbrol gloss yellow and French Blue were also applied by brush.

 

could  the flash have been done in flight colours?

 

 

 

[Admiral Puff]

23 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

 

 

 

note the photo look to be orthochrome type film,  and that the roundel outer ring is also dark, so perhaps the flash is red/yellow?

 

this looks to be red/blue.

 

 

Certainly could be.

 

I'd agree that "R" is red/blue - a near match for the roundel colours.

[Kaldrack]

3 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

I note the linked pic has embed codes,  so copied those for ease of reference, let me know if a problem and I'll edit it out. 

Great pic,  is there a story to it?

Hi Troy, I'm unsure which codes you mean.

 

The photo is from the personal photo album of a former RAF Airframe Fitter called Kenneth Barnes while serving in the Middle East & North Africa.

[Kaldrack]

The Gentlemen here:

 

Edited March 23, 2018 by Kaldrack

[Kaldrack]

Looking at the difference in tone between the yellow outer roundel ring and the fuselage flash. I would hasten a guess that on this particular example the flash contained zero yellow. The middle element of the flash certainly looks to be the same colour "Red" as the inner spot of the roundel. The outer flashes could be a different colour, but they all look very similar in tone:

 

[Jure Miljevic]

Agreed, Troy Smith, these are probably flight colours. I imagine 73 Squadron must have been taking a fair amount of pressure for retaining its pre-war markings anyway, so why not going the whole hog and include flight colours as well? Cheers

Jure

[Britman]

Just the kind of pictures that need to be seen in the public domain. Great to see and thank you for sharing. 

[JWM]

[tonyot]

Thanks for sharing,........when flying Spitfire`s in WW2 and afterwards the flash seemed to have changed to being black,...... usually with narrow silver or white `pinstripes' although I have seen photos on a crashed Spit where the thin lines are still showing the underlying camo, (I am unable to share these on line,...sorry) ...... so maybe the flash was only partially painted? 

 

Here is a well known pic, taken using orthochromatic film which doesn`t really help as the red (spinner and roundel centre) also appears black;

 

 

With the original Hurricane photo being a later aircraft, with the C1 Type roundel,...perhaps the flash had changed to black prior to changing over to Spitfire`s? 

 

Cheers

          Tony

Edited March 23, 2018 by tonyot

[mhaselden]

 

13 hours ago, Kaldrack said:

Looking at the difference in tone between the yellow outer roundel ring and the fuselage flash. I would hasten a guess that on this particular example the flash contained zero yellow. The middle element of the flash certainly looks to be the same colour "Red" as the inner spot of the roundel. The outer flashes could be a different colour, but they all look very similar in tone:

 

 

 

7 minutes ago, tonyot said:

Thanks for sharing,........when flying Spitfire`s in WW2 and afterwards the flash seemed to have changed to being black,...... usually with narrow silver or white `pinstripes' although I have seen photos on a crashed Spit where the thin lines are still showing the underlying camo, (I am unable to share these on line,...sorry) ...... so maybe the flash was only partially painted? 

 

Here is a well known pic, taken using orthochromatic film which doesn`t really help as the red (spinner and roundel centre) also appears black;

 

 

With the original Hurricane photo being a later aircraft, with the C1 Type roundel,...perhaps the flash had changed to black prior to changing over to Spitfire`s? 

 

Cheers

          Tony

 

 

Ok...dumb question time.  If the narrow lines separating the colours of the flash are yellow (as depicted in the colour profile), why are they showing up so bright on orthochromatic film? 

[ClaudioN]

17 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

could  the flash have been done in flight colours?

I have very dim memories of flight colours mentioned, possibly in an old post here on BM.

blue/yellow and black/red ?

But when, where and for how long, if at all...

 

Claudio

 

[Kaldrack]

I believe that the photo I posted of the Hurricane does not have an outline or thin stripes around or between the 3 larger stripes of the flash. Just underlying camo colours. The Spitfire photo possibly has a white stripe between the 3 larger stripes of the flash.

 

Ortho film is difficult with yellows because being colourblind to red it depends how much red light the yellow paint reflects off of the surface towards the film. The more closer to orange the yellow paint is means more red light waves thus a darker appearance on ortho film. The closer to yellow or a lighter yellow means less red light waves thus lighter appearance on the ortho film. So with yellow, depending on how light or dark a particular yellow it is it can show up as a multitude of varying greys from almost black to a neutral grey.

 

The thin light stripes between the 3 large stripes on the Spitfire photo look a little too light grey to be any variation of yellow imo. So white is the my guess. 

[tonyot]

5 hours ago, mhaselden said:

 

 

 

 

 

Ok...dumb question time.  If the narrow lines separating the colours of the flash are yellow (as depicted in the colour profile), why are they showing up so bright on orthochromatic film? 

I did say in my post that on the later aircraft with C1 Type roundels,.....they could be white or silver,...... but that I had also seen a flash on a crashed Spitfire which appeared to have been unfinished,....just having the black flash without the pin stripe being filled in,...... so they must have used a stencil.

 

Cheers

          Tony

Edited March 24, 2018 by tonyot

[mhaselden]

1 minute ago, tonyot said:

I did say in my post that on the later aircraft with C1 Type roundels,.....they could be white or silver,...... but that I had also seen a flash on a crashed Spitfire which appeared to have been unfinished,....just having the black flash without the pin stripe being filled in,...... so they must have used a stencil.

 

Cheers

          Tony

 

A stencil would make sense.  The OP pic of the Hurricane could be interpreted as the underlying camouflage showing up in the gap between the stripes of the flash. 

[tonyot]

Just now, mhaselden said:

 

A stencil would make sense.  The OP pic of the Hurricane could be interpreted as the underlying camouflage showing up in the gap between the stripes of the flash. 

That is what I think it is,...... an unfinished marking,...... although I have seen this on at least three aircraft now, this Hurricane and 2 x Spitfire`s. 

 

Cheers

          Tony

[Kaldrack]

Here’s a photo of Spitfire IX, MJ349:

 

 

Again, thin white stripes...

 

 

[Kaldrack]

On the Spits, what do you think about the possibility of Red large middle flash with two Black large flashes top and bottom with thin White stripes between?

[Graham Boak]

One point to consider.  Blue, as used on roundels, does appear to have faded quite dramatically at times, to a much lighter shade.  HV289 will presumably have been delivered to Takoradi and then flown across Central Africa before reaching 73 Sq, where the markings will have been applied in fresh Blue.  Thus the darker appearance of these compared with the Blue ring of the roundel?

[larumivi1951]

Some profiles:

[Seahawk]

For what it is worth, J D R Rawlings says in Fighter Squadrons of the RAF and Their Aircraft (p.185) that while in the Middle East "No 73 was one of the few squadrons which defied authority successfully and carried its pre-war blue and yellow marking on its Hurricanes from 1941 onwards.  This was modified on the Spitfires to be a dark blue flash with two thin yellow lines along it.  This remained the squadron's marking until re-equipment with Vampires restored the pre-war marking on the tail booms."

 

I can easily reconcile Tony's photo of MJ238 with that: the thin lines appear different from the white of the code and national markings.  I wouldn't particularly want to argue the photo of MJ349 either way, while not ruling out yellow.  Obviously I can't reconcile Rawlings' account with OP's photo of Hurricane HV299.