617 Sqdn Canberras: nose flash colours

[Rabbit Leader]

Just thinking out aloud a bit, does anyone know where one could find the applicable Canberra B.2 serials that both 9 and 617 Squadron had on strength during this 1952-3 period? 

 

Cheers.. Dave

[71chally]

I use the excellent Delve/Green/Clemons book for Canberra serials/sqn allocations, it's the best researched book to my mind.

There are other ways, but takes time to gather and put together the info.

 

Squadron ORBs and individual aircraft movement cards are the ultimate way of course, if you can access the TNA and RAFM records.

 

 

Edited April 3, 2018 by 71chally

[vildebeest]

With the photo I posted were two photos of a largely burnt out Canberra. It will be a 617 B2, again around 1953. I have no further details other than a vague recollection, which may be totally wrong, that my Dad told me that a starter cartridge had exploded and set fire to the plane. Does anybody have any further details what this might be, serial no./date etc.

 

Thanks

Paul

[David Womby]

Yes, Paul, there's a photo of one burning  in a Flypast magazine article in May 2013.  Its says the aircraft was WD982 that caught fire on start up at Binbrook on June 15 1954.

 

David

[sloegin57]

39 minutes ago, 71chally said:

I use the excellent Delve/Green/Clemons book for Canberra serials/sqn allocations, it's the best researched book to my mind.

There are other ways, but takes time to gather and put together the info.

 

Squadron ORBs and individual aircraft movement cards are the ultimate way of course, if you can access the TNA and RAFM records.

 

 

I agree with 71chally but for starters, Moyes' Bomber Squadrons of the RAF lists the following for each Squadron :- 

 

9 Squadron, 5/52 - 7/61 (all B.2's)

WD999, WE111, WF907, WJ728

 

617 Squadron, 1/52 - 4/55

WD980, WH706, WK108

 

Just one point about the early B.2's and applicable to David's model.  If you look at the photo in Post 40 of the formation, you will notice what appear to be small stubs just under the nose immediately behind the bomb aimers blister.  These are the early positions of the pitot head, as shown in the photo below, before it was placed in the now standard place on the front of the blister.  :-

 

  

B.2 WD987 of 12 Squadron at Binbrook 20/10/52 prior to the start of Operation "Round Trip", a 24,000 mile

tour of South America by three aircraft of the Squadron led by AVM Dermott Boyle (shown) and whose two star

ranking badge can just be seen behind the officer on the right.  Also repeated on the stbd side.  Flash was 

Gold outlined either Black, Blue or Red (!!) and the original pitot position can be seen just behind the

bomb-aimers blister.

 

HTH

 

Dennis

[canberra kid]

33 minutes ago, sloegin57 said:

I agree with 71chally but for starters, Moyes' Bomber Squadrons of the RAF lists the following for each Squadron :- 

 

9 Squadron, 5/52 - 7/61 (all B.2's)

WD999, WE111, WF907, WJ728

 

617 Squadron, 1/52 - 4/55

WD980, WH706, WK108

 

Just one point about the early B.2's and applicable to David's model.  If you look at the photo in Post 40 of the formation, you will notice what appear to be small stubs just under the nose immediately behind the bomb aimers blister.  These are the early positions of the pitot head, as shown in the photo below, before it was placed in the now standard place on the front of the blister.  :-

 

  

B.2 WD987 of 12 Squadron at Binbrook 20/10/52 prior to the start of Operation "Round Trip", a 24,000 mile

tour of South America by three aircraft of the Squadron led by AVM Dermott Boyle (shown) and whose two star

ranking badge can just be seen behind the officer on the right.  Also repeated on the stbd side.  Flash was 

Gold outlined either Black, Blue or Red (!!) and the original pitot position can be seen just behind the

bomb-aimers blister.

 

HTH

 

Dennis

Not only that Dennis but off set to port to avoid the secondary window under the nose.

John

[Rabbit Leader]

Dennis, thanks for the additional photograph. One never tires at viewing these lovely glossy early B.2 Canberras. Surely the No. 12 Squadron gold flash is edged in black paint - I’d say your red/blue comment is a humorous way to try to tie this in to the current 617 vs. 9 Sqd conversation? 

 

I got a wee chuckle anyway. 

 

Cheers.. Dave

[vildebeest]

David (Womby), thanks for that, that seems a very likely candidate - as I mentioned previously, 982 was one of "his" planes, which would explain why he had the photos and, I think, is in one of the photos. The photos show a very badly burnt port wing but the starboard wing largely intact, does that tie in with the photo in Flypast?

 

If the photos I have are of 982, what that means for your original question is that my Dad was still serving in June '54 - I had previously assumed that he had left around the time of his birthday in early '54 - and so based on his statements, 617 still carried red flashes then, so ruling out any change in early '54.

 

Paul

[David Womby]

2 hours ago, vildebeest said:

David (Womby), thanks for that, that seems a very likely candidate - as I mentioned previously, 982 was one of "his" planes, which would explain why he had the photos and, I think, is in one of the photos. The photos show a very badly burnt port wing but the starboard wing largely intact, does that tie in with the photo in Flypast?

Yes, the pic is from the starboard side and that wing, though thoroughly foamed, looks OK and the smoke seems to be on the port side only.

 

David

[neilfergylee]

I have just been reading Bruce Halfpenny's book 'English Electric Canberra: The History and Development of a Classic Jet' published by Pen and Sword.  It contains this useful piece of information:

 

Binbrook, being the first operational Canberra base and also one of the largest wings, introduced a lightning flash on the nose with a different colour for each of its resident squadrons. RAF Binbrook nose flash colours were: No. 9 Squadron – red nose flash; No. 12 Squadron – gold nose flash; No. 101 Squadron – black and white nose flash; No. 617 Squadron – dark blue nose flash.

 

I hope this might be of use.

[Rabbit Leader]

I’ve just noticed Xtradecals future release X72301 will be dedicated to the Canberra B.2 (and hopefully it’s just Part 1). Within this sheet is Red Flashed MSG/Black Canberra WD980 from 617 Squadron and captioned 1954. Here is a screen image of the decal sheet, however it shows the squared serial numbers rather than the rounded style that I would have expected. I’m not saying these are incorrect, just wanting to know others thoughts before these hit the printers. 

 

Cheers.. Dave

 

 

[sloegin57]

1 hour ago, Rabbit Leader said:

I’ve just noticed Xtradecals future release X72301 will be dedicated to the Canberra B.2 (and hopefully it’s just Part 1). Within this sheet is Red Flashed MSG/Black Canberra WD980 from 617 Squadron and captioned 1954. Here is a screen image of the decal sheet, however it shows the squared serial numbers rather than the rounded style that I would have expected. I’m not saying these are incorrect, just wanting to know others thoughts before these hit the printers. 

 

Cheers.. Dave

 

 

 

Interesting Dave.  Attached a scan from Moyes "Bomber Squadrons......." showing three of the aircraft on "Op Roundtrip".  They are from the same batch as WD980 but whereas the 'D' in the fuselage serial appears to be square, the numerals appear to be of the later rounded variety.  :- 

I have tried scanning it larger but it all goes printers dots.  I have a few more in that bloc but mostly after being repainted.

When the Service changed from wartime square to the modern rounded will take a bit of digging.

Interesting in that the fin "last three" on thew nearest Hastings is of the square type.

 

Comments please

HTH

Dennis

 

PS - thanks for the update on the sheet Dave - one I will have to get.  Like you - hope its not the only one

Dennis

Edited April 22, 2018 by sloegin57

[Rabbit Leader]

Dennis @sloegin57, 

I think I've found an interesting link (see last two images). Looks like WD980 went on to join XV squadron and going by those stripes may have even taken part in the in Suez campaign! It is still shown here in MSG/Black and has a squared 'D' and rounded numerals. I've not come across these images before and think they're terrific. I would doubt that the serials would have been repainted from the squared format to what is clearly shown in these photographs. My guess is these are factory applied and would have been the same whilst serving with 617. 

 

Anyway - hopefully those kind lads at Hannants take note and delve a little further in this particular scheme before committing it to the print run. It may also be helpful for Xtradecals to quote a reference source for these decal subjects so that pedantic serial font nazis like myself can stop picking petty issues all the time. 

 

Cheers.. Dave (who applauds Xtradecals, however just wants to get these right!). 

[Rabbit Leader]

And just to add more confusion - https://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?115766-1950-s-1960-s-Archive-Part-41-RAF-etc/page2 . This photo is captioned as taken in 1958. WD980 still painted in MSG/Black but this time with a curved 'D'.?? 

 

Cheers.. Dave. 

[71chally]

The pictures of WD980 on PPRUNE are brilliant for showing how 'roughly' the Suez stripes were applied.

 

It just goes to show how often the serial presentation changed, the decal sheet seems pretty well researched.

Here's hoping for a B.6(BS), B.15 and 16 sheet!

Edited April 22, 2018 by 71chally

[David Womby]

I am away from home so have no access to my books, files or pics but I am pretty sure from memory that WD980 in her early 617 days with the small fuselage serials had square style for the fuselage and round style underwing.  It sounds crazy I know.

 

David

[vildebeest]

Having looked at the original of the photo at #40 under a magnifying glass, definitely a rounded D underwing in that photo. Fuselage serial too indistinct to be able to comment.

 

Paul

[shatters]

Hannants are showing an xtradecal sheet with 617 Canberra markings showing coming soon.

 

Phil

 

Edit, just noticed rabbit leaders post.

Sorry

[David Womby]

Just to show that I do actually make models and not just ask detailed questions:

 

 

 

I'll post a couple more pics in the completions forum.

David

 

 

[canberra kid]

Very nice she is too David! I never doubted you.

 

John