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Regia Aeronautica colors help UPDATE WITH LIFECOLOR RGA COLOR SET


ModellerCH

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Hi all,

 

i got some italian war birds from Italeri. I got an Re. 2002 Ariete, a MC200 Saetta, a MC 205 Veltro and an SM 82 Marsupiale. I looked at the manuals and i have quite some problem to find the right colors. Some got F.S. codes but Others don't and it's like only Italery got the right ones. I found some colors kit like the LIFECOLOR one or the Italeri one. I can have Tamya, Gunze, LIFECOLOR, AK and Vallejo colors but i really dont' Know which to choose. The manuals have give those colors:

 

 

 

Rust: ITA MM 4675 = ?

Pale green= ?

Italian sand flat: ITA MM 4720= ?

Italian dark brown: ITA MM 4707= ?

Italian olive gree flat: ITA MM 4734= ?

Italian Olive green: ITA MM 2112= ?

Aircraft grey: ITA MM 1731= ?

 

 

Pale Green: FS 34337  = GUNZE HS 312?

Flat mimetic brown 2: FS 30118 = TY XF-52?

Flat  mimetic Yellow 3: FS 33434 = ?

Flat mimetic green 2: FS 34092 = ?

Flat gull grey: FS 36622 = XF-16, GUNZE H311?

Flat insigna Yellow: FS 33538 = GUNZE H329?

Flat interior Green: FS 24449 = ?

Nocciola chiaro 4: FS 30219 = XF-52, GUNZE H310?

Verde Oliva scuro: FS 34052 = XF-13?

Grigio azzurro chiaro 1: FS 36307 = GUNZE H324?

Flat gunship gray: FS 36118 = XF-24, GUNZE H305?

Flat verde oliva scuro: FS 34079 = GUNZE H309?

Flat grigio azzurro chiaro: FS 34159 =XF-65?

 

Any italian aricraft specialist?

 

Thanks!

 

Edited by ModellerCH
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Hi, ModellerCH,

 

Not an Italian "specialist", even with my surname, but your list with FS references looks good.  Some nitpicks: "Flat Gull Gray" is 36440. The last one I think you made a confusion; Grigio Azzurro Chiaro (undersurfaces) is equivalent to 36307. Cannot comment about the Gunze (though they are FS-referenced TMK) or Tamiya (which are not) equivalents, but those colours can be obtained in many paint lines.

 

Hope that helps,

 

FErnando (Rolandelli)

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I'm not an RAI specialist either; but, there was a thread about this a few months ago. One of the posters linked to a site that explained the 'Tavola(Table)' of colors for the Regia Aeronautica. @Giorgio N may remember the link, or point you to it. You can try a search on this(WW2) forum; or, you could scroll next couple of dozen pages to find it. Misterkit in Italy offers a line of acrylic paints with about 25-30 colors for the WW2 RAI. I cannot vouch as to how accurate they are to the RAI standards.

HTH

Joe

Edited by JPuente54
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I don't consider myself a specialist either, but being Italian by birth I have the advantage of being able to read books and websites in that language, reason why I've managed to collect enough info to make a half decent job of selecting the colours I need for most WW2 Italian schemes.

First of all let me say that while some of colours you mention are immediately recognisable as Italian colours, others are not. Kit instructions often are inaccurate or suggest colours that are the closest approximation to the ones present in the same manufacturer catalogue. For these reasons, it may be useful to summarise the colours used by Italy and the quickest way to do that is by checking this page, that I believe may be the one Joe had in mind:

 

http://www.stormomagazine.com/RegiaAeronauticaColorsinWWII_3a.htm

 

Some information may not be most recent but overall it's a good start. Some of the schemes proposed have been found to be not correct (the green on green scheme on the CR.42 does not seem to have existed), but the colours are right.

The FS correspondences listed are pretty good too, some authors offer slightly different ones but overall they are valid. Of course we have to keep in mind that any comparison with FS colours is only indicative! For example the closest FS commonly given for Nocciola Chiaro 4  is 30219, however the Italian colour is less red.

 

Once you have an indication of the paints that were actually used, you can try and understand which paints were applied on the aircraft you want to model. Going through all the different schemes used by all Italian aircrafts would require a book (and there have been some), best bet is to ask here for info on the specific subject or just the type you're interested in. For a period of time each factory used their own set of colours and some aircrafts were built by different factories so an Mc.202 could have carried different schemes depending on who built her. The Tavola 10 sorted this mess in 1941 but there is evidence of factories using colours that were not identical to what this prescribed.

In your case some aircrafts are easy, for example the Re.2002 only carried one scheme (Verde Oliva 2 over Grigio Azzurro Chiaro 1), the Macchis though are a bit more complicated. Late war aircrafts as used by the Aeronautica Nazionale Repubblicana also started using Luftwaffe paints at some point, as seen for example on the Mc.205.

 

Last but not least is the matter of the paint to use to reproduce a certain colour. LIfecolor paints are generally pretty good when it comes to Italian aircrafts, I would use them if you can find them locally. These paints are also not always the easiest to airbrush, if you use this tool and have never tried these paints you may need some trial and error. Personally these are the paints I use all the times for Italian WW2 aircrafts.

Some shades are available as close approximation from Humbrol and other brands, just check the FS given in the Stormo page. If you like Tamiya's, there are "recipes" for mixing these colours and I can get some for you if you need. As Joe mentioned, Misterkit in Milan has a good range of colours and another Italian company named Dr. Toffano makes acrylic paints for all and also have a line of colours for airbrush. I have never tried these but I've only heard good things about them. Don't know if however these would be available outside Italy

Edited by Giorgio N
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Giorgio, that is precisely the link to which I was referring. I do remember a book published in Italy in the 90's about the camouflage schemes of the RAI. I read a review in a British modelling magazine(don't recall which one) about it; the reviewer gave it good marks. While the text was in Italian; he pointed out that the various schemes were in both English and Italian; and, that it included paint chips of all the colors used. The title was along the lines of "Camouflage Schemes of the RAI in WW2". I paraphrasing that very much! Pacific Coast Models in Calif., USA had a photo of the cover on their website for a long time; it is not there at present. Misterkit paints have been imported into the USA by the aforementioned PCM, and by Roll Models, Inc.. Pac. Coast Models hasn't imported them for some years; they have been importing the Lifecolor line, both individual jars/bottles and sets. I hadn't heard of Dr. Toffano; I shall have to check it out.

CH, I hope that the information that Giorgio has kindly written is of great use to you in your efforts. This is one area(WW2 Italian AF, Army, and Navy, yes, there are people who like to model their equipment, and vehicles) where we modelers could use more information.

Joe

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1 hour ago, JPuente54 said:

Giorgio, that is precisely the link to which I was referring. I do remember a book published in Italy in the 90's about the camouflage schemes of the RAI. I read a review in a British modelling magazine(don't recall which one) about it; the reviewer gave it good marks. While the text was in Italian; he pointed out that the various schemes were in both English and Italian; and, that it included paint chips of all the colors used. The title was along the lines of "Camouflage Schemes of the RAI in WW2". I paraphrasing that very much! Pacific Coast Models in Calif., USA had a photo of the cover on their website for a long time; it is not there at present. Misterkit paints have been imported into the USA by the aforementioned PCM, and by Roll Models, Inc.. Pac. Coast Models hasn't imported them for some years; they have been importing the Lifecolor line, both individual jars/bottles and sets. I hadn't heard of Dr. Toffano; I shall have to check it out.

CH, I hope that the information that Giorgio has kindly written is of great use to you in your efforts. This is one area(WW2 Italian AF, Army, and Navy, yes, there are people who like to model their equipment, and vehicles) where we modelers could use more information.

Joe

 

Joe, the book you have in mind was likely this one:

 

http://nuke.gmtmodellismo.it/ILIBRI/AEREISTORIAEMODELLISMO/COLORIESCHEMIMIMETICIDELLAREGIAAERONAUTICA/tabid/105/Default.aspx

 

It was the second edition of a work first published in 1977 that was really the first serious effort in the study of Italian WW2 aircraft colours. The first edition was published by CMPR, that actually is a modelling club ! This second edition was co-published by the same CMPR with the addition of the GMT, another modelling club, and the GAVS, a group active in the restoration and preservation of aircrafts.

In the meantime there have been a few other works on the subject, for example the series "Colori e Insegne", dating from the early 2000's. The same people who published the Ali d'Italia series also issued a few books dedicated to profiles of single types under the title "Ali e Colori". These have very little text and no history of the colour schemes is given but are worth getting anyway

 

Small note: the Regia Aeronatica was only known as RA, never RAI as during the days of the Kingdom the title "Italiana" was not considered necessary. Regia Aeronautica simply means Royal Air Force, nothing really original.. :lol:

In the same way the army was the Regio Esercito, abbreviated in RE, and the navy was the Regia Marina, abbreviated in RM

 

I should add that a very good book has also appeared on the colours of ANR aircrafts, here it is reviewed by the IPMS USA website

 

http://www.ipmsusa.org/reviews/Archive/Books/Historical-Bio/Classic_ANR_Camouflage/Classic_ANR_Camouflage.htm

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Giorgio, that is the exact book to which I was referring! I knew that "Regia Aeronautica(and, the others)" meant "Royal Air Force(and, Royal Army, etc.)". I took 4 years of Latin in High School and do remember quite a bit; I probably know/remember it(latin) than I do Spanish(my father's side) or Italian. Wasn't aware that the "Italiana" wasn't added; thank you for telling me, my Italian has just improved. I do know that "Ali e Colori" means "Wings and Colors". Still, a good and accurate reference on the WW2 RA and ANR aircraft colors and schemes along the lines that Merrick et al(my Latin in action) have been doing for the WW2 Luftwaffe have been doing for several decades; and, Nick Millman has been doing for RAF/FAA and IJAAF/IJNAF; would be very welcome, indeed. And, yes, for you guys who like floaty things, and the smelly clanking and rolling things; good references for you are included, too.

Grazie, Giorgio, I appreciate your information.

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Glad to help Joe !

Agree, a single book along the lines of Merrik would be great, particularly if made available in English. Documentation is out there, I hope that someone finally finds the time and the courage to put everyting together someday.

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JPuente 54, et al,

 

Unfortunately, please note that Pacific Coast Models closed up shop a month or two (or more)  ago.

 

About a year or so ago, I had no real problems ordering Mister Kit paints directly from Italy.

 

Good luck.

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OMG guys!

 

Tons os info here! What a community! I would like to thank you all for your inputs...they are all very welcome! My idea is to start with the Marsupiale and use the mimetic scheme that is on the box, the first one on this picture, which i suppose is the one used for the real photo:

 

3063-101188

 

sm82-archivio_ami_01_marsup

Even thought the second one looks really really much better it's a little bit too advanced for my airbrush skills.

 

With your help i think i can now find the right colours to use. The only one i can't figure out it's the one that was used for the interior. I found some model kit pictures and they seems to use a light azure green that sometimes is darker. Is that the pale green flat FS 34227 [ "verde mimetico 53192 from the link  by Giorgio].

 

In any case i will post the "work in progress" pictures on the forum so you will be able to correct me. Don't know why but i find the Marsupiale so "ugly beautifull" like the SM Sparviero...and for my happynes it's full of cables aaargh! Well i will try to do my best. Thanks you all for you help!

Edited by ModellerCH
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Bob C., I checked their website just before I posted the above; it did state that they were "Wholesale Only" now. Are you referring to that; or, have they gone out of business(and the site does not yet reflect that)? I know that Misterkit can be ordered from Italy via their website; being acrylic, their paints have less restrictions as to shipping. But, a good point.

CH, WW2 Italian aircraft interiors were painted "Verde Anticorrosione": I. e. "Anticorrosion Green". The table that Giorgio links to in his first posting has it listed and has a FS number that is "close". I believe that Misterkit still offers it; I haven't checked their site in some time, so, you may have to check. This applied to aircraft that had metal structures. Aircraft built primarily of wood, such as the SM 79 would have the interior painted a light grey.

HTH

Joe

Edited by JPuente54
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Be wary of MisterKit.

I ordered $60.00 worth of paint for my Gotha. It was sent to the wrong address and my money was kept.

MKit no longer responds to over a year of emails , and blames me ( how convenient) for their sending of the order to the wrong address.

Truth.

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Regarding the SM.82, the subject of the Italeri decal sheet is not the same in the picture as the latter has the prewar tricolour on the rudder. This was altered to a white cross when the war started, aircrafts received after the start of the war had this change done on the production line while those already in service had the rudder repainted in various ways. I'm also quite sure to have seen that picture caprioned as representing the prototype. Both however show early camouflage schemes with wide bands, a scheme that I find very attractive on Italian trimotors.

I believe that the scheme seen in the picture is the one indicated as A3A in the CMPR guide and in the Stormo webpage, using Giallo Mimetico 3, Verde Mimetico 53192 and Marrone Mimetico 53193. The aircraft proposed by Italeri could have the same scheme or the one indicated as A4, with the green replaced by the darker Verde Mimetico 3.  I'd really like to see a picture of this aircraft, will look through a couple of books. Lower surfaces for both would be Aluminum, that on Italian aircrafts always means an aluminum paint.

 

Interior colours of Italian WW2 aircrafts are a difficult subject. Until the introduction of the Tavola 10 every company pretty much used the colours they preferred, with some using greys and some using greens or grey-greens. The Tavola 10 requested the use of Grigio Azzurro Chiaro for interiors.

Grey paints had already been used by severall companies for a few years and some believ that the same Grigio Azzurro Chiaro was also used.

Now the famous Verde Anticorrosione... it's been often mentioned by English language modelling press that this colour was the one used for interiors but it's one of those cases of the information being available but not in the right language. The name itself should ring a bell as "anticorrosione" means anti-corrosive. Anti-corrosive properties are typical of primers used on metallic surfaces and indeed there was a green similar to this used as a primer for aluminum alloys. There were also primers of other colours, among them a grey primer.

In any case we should keep two things in mind:

1) a primer could sure be used to paint the interior of aircrafts, however very often the interiors are painted with another colour on top of a primer (RAF aircrafts for example). The same happened with several Italian aircrafts.

2) Not all aircrafts have all parts made with aluminum alloys and the Siai built trimotors, including the SM.82 are an example. These had a mixed steel/wooden tubular structure covered with wood and canvas. None of these materials would have required a primer specific for aluminum ! It is in fact known that the interiors of these aircrafts were mainly grey. Some parts may have been in different colours, for example there is a list of colours used by Siai that mentions a tobacco colour for the seats. All steel parts were to be coated with a specific anticorrisive grey paint.

The SM.82 at the Italian Air Force Museum has grey floors, grey cabin and green cockpit. May have been restord correctly, may not. The SM.79 original interior finish was all in grey when this aircraft returned from Lebanon, don't know what the restored aircraft is like

 

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What he wrote. :D Thanks Giorgio for putting me straight. I have a few RA aircraft(the old Airfix SM. 79, Supermodels RE. 2000, 2001, 2002; etc.) kits in my stash. This information is very useful.

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To pick up on one of Giorgio’s many excellent points, I can’t say enough good things about the “Ali d’Italia” line of books, which are relatively inexpensive and easy to find - though rather rapidly becoming less so.

 

My favorites are the 7 titles in the “Ali e Colori” series, which feature absolutely superb color profiles by the late Angelo Brioschi. The two volumes on the Macchi 202/205 series will enable you to identify most aircraft by maker by their color scheme alone, LOL!

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Searched some more information on the subject of the Italeri decal sheet and here's what I found...

One thing was puzzling me: 205a Squadriglia was a bomber unit and had been equipped with SM.79s for a while, later receiving Cant Z.1007s. What would an SM.82 do within this unit ? I was wondering if Italeri had made a mistake but turned out that they are right! This unit used a small number of 82s for a raid over the Manama oil refiniries in Bahrain. The raid was a success but really the number of aircrafts used was too small to cause any significant damage, a problem that afflicted many other long range bombing missions carried out by Italian forces during WW2.

Pictures of a couple of these aircrafts seem to show the A3A scheme mentioned above. Personally I use Lifecolor paints for all these 3 colours but others can be used as the FS equivalents are relatively common in various paint ranges.

The CMPR book mentions the use of Grigio Mimetico on the undersides of aircrafts with this scheme, however later research have shown that aluminum undersurfaces were used for longer than previously thought, I would probably use this rather than grey.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I see that Italeri is including FS 36270, guess for the grey undersurfaces. This is not too correct as the colour for the early grey is similar to FS 36231, a slightly different grey.

The later grey is very different, being close to FS 36307. Lifecolor have both colours in their range

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On ‎16‎.‎03‎.‎2018 at 12:45 PM, Giorgio N said:

I see that Italeri is including FS 36270, guess for the grey undersurfaces. This is not too correct as the colour for the early grey is similar to FS 36231, a slightly different grey.

The later grey is very different, being close to FS 36307. Lifecolor have both colours in their range

So what's the point on making a REG set if the colors are wrong?

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So finally i got the LIFECOLORS RGA set

IMG_20180321_174441[5798]

 

Sorry the names are only in Italian. But "mimetico" it's simply "mimetic", "Nocciola" stands for "Hazelnut", "Verde" for "green" , "Giallo" it's "Yellow" and "Azzurro" it's for "light blue"

 

I hope the have all the colors i need now

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I see that they have two "Nocciola 4", interesting ! I have read mentions of two different types being used, with Macchi using a darker variation, curious to see how Lifecolor has reproduced these.

I'm also curious to see what Giallo Mimetico 16 is supposed to be, I've never seen reference to this colour, it's likely one of the Giallo Mimetico series, but which one ?

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