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Poor state of German Armed Forces.


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I know our Armed Forces are in a depleted state but this shocked me when I read it.Link

And when one considers this is economically Europe's richest nation and supposedly one of it's strongest this report does not make for easy reading and shows how much the main powers of Europe are not taking defence seriously, and with Russia doing another sabre rattling press release this week it makes me feel a little uneasy how unprepared we may be as a collective.

Thoughts?

 

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It makes for interesting reading certainly.

I wonder what our current military equipment readiness numbers are?

Probably not too far off the German ones I fear.

The comments on there are mixed, but do make some valid points.

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224 tanks total, if that's the case why bother, even if they were all working what difference would they make in a full on conventional war, even if we were to back them up with a modern equivalent of BAOR we've only got 227 or thereabouts Challengers in service & I'm going to stop there before I get political & probably banned.

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To me the raw figures alone show a serious problem throughout the chain of command that will have a direct and most obvious impact in the training, disciple, and moral amongst the front line personnel.

 

"Number of weapon systems ready for action:

Typhoon jets: 39 of 128

Tornado jets: 26 of 93

CH-53 transport helicopters: 16 of 72

NH-90 transport helicopters: 13 of 58

Tigre attack helicopters: 12 of 62

A400M transport aircraft: 3 of 15

Leopard 2 tanks: 105 of 224

Frigates: 5 of 13

Submarines: 0 out of 6"

 

There's only so many times you can go robbing bits from one machine to keep another working before the novelty wears off and if you don't have the proper kit, particularly winter kit in winter, or equipment moral will be at rock bottom. The figures look bad but I wonder how many European nations will be able to boast better?

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One alarming line was this; "Minister Ursula von der Leyen then stressed that only six of the operational Tornado jets would be needed for the proposed German mission in Syria", the undertone being that as long as six are flyable we are alright.

When I first took up spotting in the early eighties my understanding was that 1/3 of the fleet was in maint/upgrade, 1/3 deployed or on excercise and the other 1/3 at home base traning/readiness etc. Or did I imagine those numbers?

 

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hmm well you got the rule of thirds correct and that is a bout right for our surface escort fleet ...6 away (ish) 6 refit and 6 working up lets take subs and carriers etc. out of this coz it gets complicated. 

As for the German fast jet numbers well depend how you count it and at what time ...i've been privy to days when the majority of a particular a/c fleet is u/s and other days when its almost 100% that said I know there have been sustainability issues with the Luftwaffe....that is on its way up at list with EF. Meanwhile 6 for a prolonged det is about right ....that's half a squadron which still have domestic stuff to do and rotate personnel..

As for the UK well I suggest you look less at numbers and look at our capability gaps there are quite a few if you look carefully..sometimes less is more but nuff said on that one .The UK is a large state of flux as concerns its air assets ....fast jet,AT, training and rotary plus chuck on the 2010 defence review which was purely monetary based and not so much on capability...ho hum.Its personnel that's the biggest issue getting them in and keeping a sufficient number in  but meh it wasn't even an issue at the last election so apart from us geeks its not an issue for joe public ...it a'int up there unless you are getting pulled out of a trapped car in the snow ......      

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On ‎03‎.‎03‎.‎2018 at 9:22 AM, Col. said:

 

"Number of weapon systems ready for action:

Typhoon jets: 39 of 128

Tornado jets: 26 of 93

CH-53 transport helicopters: 16 of 72

NH-90 transport helicopters: 13 of 58

Tigre attack helicopters: 12 of 62

A400M transport aircraft: 3 of 15

Leopard 2 tanks: 105 of 224

Frigates: 5 of 13

Submarines: 0 out of 6"

 

Transall, Lynx and Sea King are not even mentioned - I think both helis should - at least in theory - still feature, or were they unceremoniously retired because their u/s rate was a sustained 100 % ?

The main problem seems to be that the peace divi didn't work out as thought, I have read reports that in many cases relatively cheap and profane spares are not (immediately) available for the older types. As far as the new equipment goes, there may be a bit apples and oranges, as AFAIK much of the u/s rate is explained by ongoing upgrade work on the four types concerned, with possibly a separate influence on the Tiger being last year's loss in Mali and the ongoing investigation. It's really a pity that we've had a succession of MoD's both without knowledge of the subject and a desire to be in the press constantly. Hope this isn't taken to be too political...

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48 minutes ago, tempestfan said:

Transall, Lynx and Sea King are not even mentioned - I think both helis should - at least in theory - still feature, or were they unceremoniously retired because their u/s rate was a sustained 100 % ?

Think you will find the FGN sea king fleet is doing ok....if you go by the two ex mk5 which are operating from Portland....training contract....last I heard .....crazy servicability.

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Not so sure about that - there has been talk over a couple of years now that Germany willl likely no longer be able to meet its long range SAR commitments over the North Sea due to the poor state of the equipment. Mind you, they have been used for some 45 years now in a demanding environment

And no one even has mentioned the UH-1D...

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Nato as a whole is a mess,it's lost it's way in an attempt to expand and bring under it's wing more countries which stretch the core member's

asset's and money,they've gone out of their way to rub Russia's nose in it which has played into the hand's of their leadership so sabre's are being

rattled in eastern Europe and please tell me what ground's Giorgia (no offence meant to Giorgian's) qualifies to be a member of a North Atlantic

treaty organisation?Another factor has been member's total belief that the U.S. will bail out Europe if the excrement hit's the fan and cry foul when

a certain person tells them to stick their hand in their pocket's,collectively we all need to start spending and sorting this mess out, as for the U.K. it

would be nice to have a Minister of Defence that sit's down and think's where can we improve and modernise rather than what can we cut and sell

off.

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On ‎03‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 7:03 PM, junglierating said:

but meh it wasn't even an issue at the last election so apart from us geeks its not an issue for joe public ...it a'int up there unless you are getting pulled out of a trapped car in the snow ......      

 

This book is quite good on that subject:https://www.amazon.com/Risk-Things-Shouldnt-Ourselves-Greater/dp/0771032595

 

It contains a lot of psychology on risk perception, and has amounted a lot of referenced facts. For example, he's sampled trends of the uptake of earthquake insurance cycles from popular to unpopular, but the phasing of that cycle is exactly wrong almost everywhere he looked. People let insurance lapse believing it a waste of money the further back in memory the last mentionable shake was, but once it happens properly and their losses are uninsured, they then take out insurance again - when its statistically least likely to be needed - until they forget again, decide it's a waste of money and...

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In the wake of World War II there was a spate of reminiscence books, often written by people caught up in the war who were in no way ardent militarists.  A common theme in the last few pages of these books is "we must never allow our defences to become so weak again" (I think in particular of "To Sea In A Sieve" by Peter Bull, an actor who ended up as CO of a Landing Craft Flak).  Unfortunately we are now several generations on from those who remember what a close-run thing it was last time. 

 

PS "To Sea In A Sieve" a good read if you can find it.

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It could be argued that the "de-Prussification" of Germany after WW2, although perhaps necessary for long-term peace in Europe, actually removed the country's psychological backbone, at least as far as the German political class is concerned. This book should be a good read: Iron Kingdom: The Rise and Downfall of Prussia, 1600-1947 by Christopher Clark. Review: LINK.

 

An onerous choice - Germany as it currently is, or what it might have been if militarism hadn't been expunged....

 

Now there's a thought!

 

Mike.:hmmm:

 

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Doesn't it all come down to "Guns or Butter"? Spend your money on the military or spend it on other programs be they social, infrastructure, whatever. They all cost money and there's only so much of that. So unless you come up with a way to get more money, you've got to rob Peter to pay Paul. 

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1 hour ago, gamevender said:

Doesn't it all come down to "Guns or Butter"? Spend your money on the military or spend it on other programs be they social, infrastructure, whatever. They all cost money and there's only so much of that. So unless you come up with a way to get more money, you've got to rob Peter to pay Paul. 

Not necessarily - actually there is (almost) enough money available although Germany does not quite meet the required percentage of BIP for NATO. Its just that nobody really seems to know where it all goes. I sometimes wonder how we managed to keep the Bundeswehr running when it was a real Army back in the cold war.

Another problem is the current (and some former) minister of defence. Von der Leyen took over defence coming from the family ministry and obviously knows nothing about the military and does not even care to. She should have been replaced by someone who cares, best with some kind of military background. But you will not find someone like that in Germany because the Bundeswehr is something of an unloved child since the end of the cold war and has been neglected and left to deteriorate for decades now. The last two or three people in charge were perfectly content to have their faces on TV - but could not tell a Typhoon from a Tornado.

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22 hours ago, tempestfan said:

Not so sure about that - there has been talk over a couple of years now that Germany willl likely no longer be able to meet its long range SAR commitments over the North Sea due to the poor state of the equipment. Mind you, they have been used for some 45 years now in a demanding environment

And no one even has mentioned the UH-1D...

Go to heli operations website....military owned contractor operated for the training of german sar crew.and from an LH source hooofin' servicability.....just waiting for the news for FGN SAR saving UK lives in the paper

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22 hours ago, Ingo Degenhardt said:

Not necessarily - actually there is (almost) enough money available although Germany does not quite meet the required percentage of BIP for NATO. Its just that nobody really seems to know where it all goes. I sometimes wonder how we managed to keep the Bundeswehr running when it was a real Army back in the cold war.

Another problem is the current (and some former) minister of defence. Von der Leyen took over defence coming from the family ministry and obviously knows nothing about the military and does not even care to. She should have been replaced by someone who cares, best with some kind of military background. But you will not find someone like that in Germany because the Bundeswehr is something of an unloved child since the end of the cold war and has been neglected and left to deteriorate for decades now. The last two or three people in charge were perfectly content to have their faces on TV - but could not tell a Typhoon from a Tornado.

I guess it was to some extent cheaper back when we had compulsory military service. They are struggling to get the required adequately qualified personnel, from what I heard.

I wouldn't particularly advocate someone with a military background (at least not high ranking), but someone who has a basic understanding of the technicalities, and is hence not led onto the ice that easily. A lot of modellers would qualify in that respect ;) A legal background would also not come amiss - I am torn as I am an Airbus shareholder, but it's simply impossible they could get away from the A400  semi-debacle with moderate injuries - from what can be made out, many of the collaborative projects seem to have been based on naive contractwork.

Hey, modeller, legal background - I know the perfect candidate :angel:

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  • 3 weeks later...

Less spend on foreign aid (why is this perpetually ring-fenced in budgets!?) and less on proven benefit scroungers. Make the super-rich and giant multinationals pay proper tax even if they have a nominal 'headquarters' on some 5 hectare Atlantic island, and stop paying bungling bankers and hedge fund gamblers millions in bonuses!

 

Spend the savings on some decent kit for our boys and girls at the pointy end, a squadron of maritime reconnaissance aircraft and some proper long range interceptors to beat back Bears before they're in cruise missile range.

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