F-105D - would I be crazy? Image added

[RidgeRunner]

Hi Wez,

 

That is excellent. I have that book :). In fact I am hoovering up books on the subject at the moment. I appreciate, though, your time and descriptive remarks which go a long way to supporting my project. Four (or more) eyes are better than two ;). I just had a further delivery today - Lou Drendel's "F-105 Thunderchief Illustrated" by Aviation Art Inc. I'm hoping it'll help me with '155's sister build - 59-1749 "Mr Toad" for which I need a good image of the toad so that I can redraw it for decaling.

 

Here it has just started snowing again. Hopefully it wont be too bad because my wife is out at the hospital with our granddaughter :(....

 

Many thanks again,

 

Martin  

Edited March 4, 2018 by RidgeRunner

[Jackman]

Someone on ARC had posted this a while ago. I saved it on my PC but I'm not sure who the pic belongs to.

 

 

Unfortunately, the pic doesn't show the front part of the fuselage.

Credit goes to original owner of the image.

Edited March 3, 2018 by Jackman

[Wez]

No disputing that, very yellow indeed!

[huvut76g7gbbui7]

so there you go @RidgeRunner

As I said before white Yellow,dayglo and natural metal...a doddle 

 

[RidgeRunner]

Excellent, Jackman, although it does look a little photo shopped. See the irregular demarcation between the rudder and the fin. It is strange. If you compare this image with the original one I posted there are many differences, such as the lack of black lining on the red patches, the black lining around the intake at the base of the fin, the lack of "D-10" on the fin and it is shown in natural metal where's the first image shows, I think, an aluminium finish. As I said, it is strange. 

 

I guess it must be genuine, though, and So I had better invest in some pale yellow paint! . Notwithstanding all that it is a great post. Thank you so much.

 

Martin

Edited March 3, 2018 by RidgeRunner

[Jackman]

11 minutes ago, RidgeRunner said:

Excellent, Jackman, although it does look a little photo shopped. See the irregular demarcation between the rudder and the fin. It is strange. If you compare this image with the original one I posted there are many differences, such as the lack of black lining on the red patches, the black lining around the intake at the base of the fin, the lack of "D-10" on the fin and it is shown in natural metal where's the first image shows, I think, an aluminium finish. As I said, it is strange. 

 

I guess it must be genuine, though, and So I had better invest in some pale yellow paint! . Notwithstanding all that it is a great post. Thank you so much.

 

Martin

 

I too thought it might have been photoshopped. Something about the yellow, esp below the cockpit doesn't look right.  But I have a hard time figuring out why anyone would bother photoshopping that particular image.  Maybe they tried to sharpen an old photo slide and got carried away.  Or maybe it was a genuine photo and the guys at Republic did a hasty paintjob for the airshow open house ( since it is not at all unusual for paint to peel off from test subjects).

 

Notice how the black outline seems to re-appear near the landing gear cover ( above the girl in the blue dress)?

 

By the way, if you're planning to paint the black outline, perhaps these might help:

 

Micron tapes ( the 0.4mm & 0.7mm ones in particular might be useful for 1/72 scale)

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/search?typ1_c=102&cat=&state=&sold=0&sortid=0&searchkey=micron+masking+tape

 

Hasegawa curved tape:

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10460325

 

Tamiya curved tape:

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/search?typ1_c=102&cat=&state=&sold=0&sortid=0&searchkey=tamiya+curve+tape

 

 

 

[RidgeRunner]

Hi Jackman,

 

Upon looking again there are other differences. For example, the olive drab section to the rear of the cockpit has a black section inserted on the genuine Republic image. I have another close up (in B&W) that clearly shows the fin and rudder as natural metal and all red areas have black lining. And why pale yellow? I haven't found any image of any Republic test aircraft with anything like that applied. This colour, while potentially a clincher, opens up more questions.

 

i am, of course, grateful that you posted it.

 

thanks also for the lining options

 

Martin

[Jackman]

No problem sir

[FAAMAN]

This'll be good

[Reparty]

I think that day-glo yellow is more appropriate, in that it has that lemon-yellow tinge to it.

It certainly did last time i used it the Humbrol version as an undercoat to a worn orange day-glo.

[71chally]

10 hours ago, RidgeRunner said:

have another close up (in B&W) that clearly shows the fin and rudder as natural metal and all red areas have black lining. And why pale yellow? I

This aircraft seems to have gone through slight variations in finish, the opening B&W shot clearly shows that the fin and rudder were painted at one time, and that there was a tail code.

 

That colour shot is indeed very intriguing, at first glance it does look like that it could be a manipulated image, but I wouldn't want to dismiss it straight away.   

Older colour slides can be very hard to scan and when enlarged can have wavy lines and garish colours which can bleed across to adjoining areas.  Light and shade also effect how we see things like lines, note the red turbine stripe losing definition in the brighter areas.  Add to that that this could be a blow up/enlargement and then all sorts of things can happen.

If the image is taken from a publication things get even worse!

This is the second reference to the colours being yellow, but perhaps the first one referred to this picture?

 

 

I've only just noticed your earlier query about the upper nose NACA scoop, this was relocated to the stb'd side on later aircraft (and indeed retrospectively on 81155), I doubt gun related and suspect upper equipment bay cooling.

 

 

I've just looked through my F-105 book and I find any further images of this jet.

Edited March 4, 2018 by 71chally

[RidgeRunner]

Thanks for that, 71chally. I agree about imaging. That may well explain things. I'll keep digging and see what comes up to explain things, if anything.  For my build I am going to need to decide the markings version I want, as there are clearly variations over time, and stick to that. That will probably mean I go with the natural metal fin and rudder but with the yellow nose patch. I have the detail for that.

 

Martin

Edited March 4, 2018 by RidgeRunner

[Jackman]

Ok, managed to find the ARC thread that I found that picture from. It was posted by Jennings:

 

http://www.arcforums.com/forums/air/index.php?/topic/290229-heres-a-new-one-on-me-colorful-f-105d-test-bird/&tab=comments#comment-2774196

 

But the actual colour photo of 58-1155 seems to have disappeared. Perhaps a victim of Photobucket's new "You must Pay!" policy?

 

But of note is ARC poster Chek's post :

Quote

F-105D Ship No.10 (I assumed that's what D-10 meant...

 

 

 

[RidgeRunner]

Thanks again Jackman.

 

The other odd thing about this yellow (in my view) is the shade used. That yellow is nothing like any yellow I've seen before on a USAF machine. I'd really like it all to be true but something tells me there is something odd here.

 

Martin 

[71chally]

It all comes down to personal interpretation with the evidence provided I guess.

 

Currently there are more suggestions that the fin/rudder and nose areas were yellow than any other colour. 

Was yellow used on other airframes?  This is an interesting pic of 40100,  http://aviation.watergeek.eu/f-105.html

and check out 4:32 in this video, note the yellow missile handler and an adjacent small area of orange, 

 

 

And now I shall run away smartly with the thoughts that colour interpretation from old film is difficult, especially dayglo type colours which can appear as featureless blocks of colour.

 

Personally speaking, if I was building this right now I would be going for the yellow, but it could be wrong!

Edited March 4, 2018 by 71chally

[RidgeRunner]

That's an excellent video, mate. Thank you. 

 

I still have plenty of time to decide on the colours as the build will be a bit in the future as I need to get a couple of others done first. Then it'll be a pair of Thuds

 

all the best, Martin

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

Thanks for posting the Video. Theres a few seconds of FH-112 the Recon prototype. Its carrying the sidewinder twin mount. 

[Giorgio N]

Now that's a very colourful subject !

Some thoughts on this: if the colour picture is not photoshopped, then clearly the scheme went through some variations, as the black lining on the nose area is clearly visible in the picture in the Squadron book and is clearly not there in the colour photo. The tail also looks unpainted in the BW picture but is painted here. It's also true that yellow may look very close to silver/NM in BW pictures but in this one the nose area shows differently from the fin. I'd say that the fin was unpainted in the first picture.

The use of yellow is indeed unusual. Or better, I should add that the use of "proper" yellow is unusual, as other pictures like the one of 40100 linked above seem to show yellow. However I believe that these pictures don't show a real yellow but show ANA 633 or 634, two fluorescent orange paints both known for fading to yellow.

With these being prototypes, the TO-1-1-4 is of no help here, but interestingly the page on the Thud shows that the rudder was not covered by paint when conspicuity markings were applied, consistent with the colour picture posted here.

With this aircraft being retained by Republic for a while, the company could have of course used any paint they wanted, more so if they wanted to add a striking scheme. The yellow could have simply been a colour held in stock by the company for some reason.

 

Assuming we find the truth on the colours, my favourite way to reproduce the scheme would be as mentioned by Ridgerunner before: apply paper or similar to the fuselage, draw the scheme on this, remove and use this to draw a mask. Then print the black lining on decal paper. This would be the perfect job for a computer controlled cutter as the same file could be used to both cut the mask and print the decal. Without one of these, it's a matter of having a steady enough hand when cutting. I would cut the mask so that it ends below the black striping, in this way any small error would be hidden by the decal.

[71chally]

4 hours ago, Giorgio N said:

The tail also looks unpainted in the BW picture but is painted here. It's also true that yellow may look very close to silver/NM in BW pictures but in this one the nose area shows differently from the fin. I'd say that the fin was unpainted in the first picture.

Now that is interesting as I would say that the tail (fin and rudder) in the BW picture is clearly painted.

If you gauge it next to the NMF of the fuselage you can see there isn't any panel shades and lines etc.  Initially I jumped to the conclusion that it was painted white (but now with the yellow), as the tone appears the same as the national markings on the fuselage.  

 

Photo interpretation - don't you just love it!

[Giorgio N]

5 hours ago, 71chally said:

Now that is interesting as I would say that the tail (fin and rudder) in the BW picture is clearly painted.

If you gauge it next to the NMF of the fuselage you can see there isn't any panel shades and lines etc.  Initially I jumped to the conclusion that it was painted white (but now with the yellow), as the tone appears the same as the national markings on the fuselage.  

 

Photo interpretation - don't you just love it!

 

Oh yes, interpreting B/W pictures is a nightmare !

My conclusion was that the tone of the tail was more similar to the fuselage than to the insignia or the nose area, but in the end I'm looking at a picture on a monitor that may not be the best calbrated in the world and so on... I have looked for a picture of the same aircraft in a couple of books but with no luck. Of course in books there's the matter of the printing etc, so it's still difficult

That's why I like having official schemes whenever possible, makes things a bit easy. Now not that interpreting colour pictures is that easier anyway..

[RidgeRunner]

12 hours ago, Giorgio N said:

Now that's a very colourful subject !

Some thoughts on this: if the colour picture is not photoshopped, then clearly the scheme went through some variations, as the black lining on the nose area is clearly visible in the picture in the Squadron book and is clearly not there in the colour photo. The tail also looks unpainted in the BW picture but is painted here. It's also true that yellow may look very close to silver/NM in BW pictures but in this one the nose area shows differently from the fin. I'd say that the fin was unpainted in the first picture.

The use of yellow is indeed unusual. Or better, I should add that the use of "proper" yellow is unusual, as other pictures like the one of 40100 linked above seem to show yellow. However I believe that these pictures don't show a real yellow but show ANA 633 or 634, two fluorescent orange paints both known for fading to yellow.

With these being prototypes, the TO-1-1-4 is of no help here, but interestingly the page on the Thud shows that the rudder was not covered by paint when conspicuity markings were applied, consistent with the colour picture posted here.

With this aircraft being retained by Republic for a while, the company could have of course used any paint they wanted, more so if they wanted to add a striking scheme. The yellow could have simply been a colour held in stock by the company for some reason.

 

Assuming we find the truth on the colours, my favourite way to reproduce the scheme would be as mentioned by Ridgerunner before: apply paper or similar to the fuselage, draw the scheme on this, remove and use this to draw a mask. Then print the black lining on decal paper. This would be the perfect job for a computer controlled cutter as the same file could be used to both cut the mask and print the decal. Without one of these, it's a matter of having a steady enough hand when cutting. I would cut the mask so that it ends below the black striping, in this way any small error would be hidden by the decal.

 

Thanks for the very comprehensive and objective post, Giorgio. Again I am grateful of, and warmed by, the generosity of guidance and knowledge on this forum. I'm getting it hey fingers, eager to start building. My first step of a dual Thud build will be to fill those rivets. For that I've taken your advice and ordered a couple of correction pens. I've practiced with liquid from a bottle and then sanding, which works best. I tried alcohol wipes but they removed too much and left the areas requiring a second application. Should I start a WIP.

 

my next challenge will be work out the best way of replicating the Amarillo lettering and Star and Bar with the silver/aluminium outlining!

 

Martin

Edited March 5, 2018 by RidgeRunner

[71chally]

6 minutes ago, RidgeRunner said:

Should I start a WIP.

Yes Martin!

[RidgeRunner]

Well that's that decided, then .

 

notice my edit to my last post re: lettering and star and bar decals

 

Martin

Edited March 5, 2018 by RidgeRunner