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Lapland war Finish insignia?


JWM

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Hi,

In September 1944 Finland and Soviets signed armistrice pact. Germans army whcih was present on Finland territory was supouse to be evacuated to Norway in a peaceful way, however soon fights between Germans and Fins started. More about it here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lapland_War

I am asking if anybody knows how fast Finish national insignia turned from blue swastika to a modern ahape roundel whiate-deep blue-white. I always thought that it was exactly in September 1944, like in Romania, Bulgaria or Italy in moment of changing the alliances/sides of conflict. However I have found some pictures presenting Finish airplanes with blue swastikas (without any yellow elements - the overpaintings of yellows seemed to be done immediately) described as "April 1945". 

 

BTW - here is interesting film with a lot of Finish machines 39-45

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_a2RhOcZ3U

 

Cheers

J-W

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if you don't get a response from one of our Finnish member, perhaps @Kari Lumppio  or @Antti_K   then I suggest emailing the Finnish Airforce Museum, 

http://airforcemuseum.fi/contact-information/

 

They have been  extremely helpful when I contacted them.

 

HTH

T

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1 hour ago, Ed Russell said:

Still in limited use in the Finnish military but certainly not on aircraft

Ed, interesting link, thanks. Colour is an important cultural factor, Finns have swastikas in gold or blue, never black, Just to recal that five arm star is both Soviet/communist if red and US (and liberals) if white :)...

 

5 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

if you don't get a response from one of our Finnish member, perhaps @Kari Lumppio  or @Antti_K   then I suggest emailing the Finnish Airforce Museum, 

http://airforcemuseum.fi/contact-information/

 

They have been  extremely helpful when I contacted them.

 

Troy, thank you for this suggestion. I will go on with asking the museum. I remember that once I asked Canadian museum in Ottawa about markings on RCAF Boeing 247 and also have got  answer. However finally I 've made my 247 in RAF colours.

Regards

J-W

 

 

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2 hours ago, Jure Miljevic said:

Hello, Jerzy

Trust post-September 1944 photos of Finnish planes with (I believe) Count Thulin swastikas. Finns definitely did not change their markings to roundels before April 1945, and even then upon Soviet insistence only. Cheers

 

2 hours ago, Vesa Jussila said:

Swastika was replaced April 1945. So during Lapland war it was used. Yellow was removed immediately after continuation war.

Hi Jure and Vessa, 

Many thanks - this was something I was supousing agains old sources like that:

78_38.jpg

 

So this is more true picture:

78_21.png

 

BTW please note that Morko Morane had tailwheel not skid, what is shown also on lower figure

Regards and many thanks!

Jerzy-Wojtek

 

 

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Hi Jerzy et al,

 

Order to change swastika insignia to the roundel before 1. April 1945 was given on 13th March 1945. So technically both insignias were used during the Lappland War as the last war flights were flown during April 1945...

 

Worth of note is that since early 1944 background of the insignia was dimmed. Order given 12th January 1944. This is missing from MS-633 drawing. Also red spinner is questionable.

 

Order to remove yellow theater markings was given 4th September 1944 to be done before 14th September 1944.

 

Aircam's Finnish Air Force 1918-1968 is well-known to be questionable in accuracy department as there were not a Morane serialled MS-551 and the post-war tail number "6" of MS-632 was not white. Blue and yellow are published alternatives.

 

Cheers,

 

AaCee

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Hello, Jerzy-Wojtek

Sadly, Lapland war is usually just a footnote in history books. Still, some articles has been published about this little known part of the WWII. IIRC one was published in Combat Aircraft magazine decade or two ago. Will try to find it after lunch. Cheers

Jure

P.S.: Are you interesting mainly in Mörko Morane or other types also come into consideration?

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1 hour ago, AaCee26 said:

Order to change swastika insignia to the roundel before 1. April 1945 was given on 13th March 1945. So technically both insignias were used during the Lappland War as the last war flights were flown during April 1945...

Worth of note is that since early 1944 background of the insignia was dimmed. Order given 12th January 1944. This is missing from MS-633 drawing. Also red spinner is questionable.

 

Order to remove yellow theater markings was given 4th September 1944 to be done before 14th September 1944.

 

Aircam's Finnish Air Force 1918-1968 is well-known to be questionable in accuracy department as there were not a Morane serialled MS-551 and the post-war tail number "6" of MS-632 was not white. Blue and yellow are published alternatives.

Many thanks for such detailed info AACee. Much apprecieted!

 

24 minutes ago, Jure Miljevic said:

Hello, Jerzy-Wojtek

Sadly, Lapland war is usually just a footnote in history books. Still, some articles has been published about this little known part of the WWII. IIRC one was published in Combat Aircraft magazine decade or two ago. Will try to find it after lunch. Cheers

Jure

P.S.: Are you interesting mainly in Mörko Morane or other types also come into consideration?

 

Many thanks Jure! I think the majority of my Finish models are and will be from Continuation War due to the most colourfull and nice camos. However I have to "sacrify" some aesthetic temptations and do few models from Winter and Lapland Wars. From Winter War it will be for Fokker CX and Gloster Gamecock (perhaps some more later also) and from Lapland War - Morko.  I am thinking that Morko Morane is a best subject to commemorate Lapland War. This modification appeared at the end of Continuation War, only 3  were used before Sept 44, so this is the reason.

I have to tell that I put myself some limitations for how many models of given type I am doing. This makes that I have to find one certain scheme in which I do for example MS 406 and it is French, not Finish. But Morko is variant with dfferent engine so I am doing it...The worse case id for example Gladiator, which alomst identical with all veariants and so many temptating schemes...But I want to have some proportions on shelves.

Cheers

J-W

 

 

 

 

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Hi JWM,

 

Mörkö Moranes saw limited service during Lapland war. Basically problem was limited endurance of plane and available bases were too south. That lead that most used fighter was Brewster. There are books written by Hannu Valtonen about Lapland air war. I can look tomorrow more information from those about usage of Moranes.

 

Br. Vesa

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I admire your efforts concerning type balance in your glass cabinet, Jerzy-Wojtek. You probably already came across this one, still ... In MS.406 in C.714 (SIH) book there is a photo of MSv-633, accompanied by black & white profile drawing. As both AaCee and Vesa indicated colour profile you posted is somewhat questionable. Spinner does seems to be of lighter shade than black fuselage camouflage colour but, on the other hand, it certainly is no lighter than propeller blades ... Unfortunately, no idea if national insignia background is white or light blue/gray. Back to my bookshelf ... Cheers

Jure

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Many thanks! Here is a post war photo with two colour spinner:

Znalezione obrazy dla zapytania morko morane

It could be even olive green - I think this inpired to suggest red spinner

Regards

J-W

 

 

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Hello

Unfortunately I found nothing about Lapland war in my copies of Combat Aircraft magazine. Returning to MS.406 and C.714 book again, in chapter titled Lapa sota 1944 there are two more photos of Mörko-Morane fighters, still with swastika national insignia, but devoid of yellow Eastern front markings. Numbers of aircraft in question are MSv-624 and MSv-302. An abstract in English at the end of the book says that during the Lapland war Mörko-Moraani fighters flew reconnaissance and escort missions in late September and in October 1944 only, as by early November they had been withdrawn from units and put into storage. Cheers

Jure

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Hi,

 

As Mörkö-Moranes were delivered starting from summer 1944 from the factory they certainly had toned-down insignias.

 

In book "Suomen ilmavoimien värit 1918-2013" is said possible colour of the spinner RLM 70. If I recall right props were overhauled German war-booty items.

 

If I had to select one type for the Lappland War I would probably be VL Myrsky as only Finnish-designed aircraft used in combat.

 

Cheers,

 

AaCee

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Jure, many, many thanks!

 

1 hour ago, AaCee26 said:

If I had to select one type for the Lappland War I would probably be VL Myrsky as only Finnish-designed aircraft used in combat.

AaCee - also many thanks for help! Good suggestion, but Myrsky saw combat in so called Continuation War - and looks good with yellows :)

Regards

J-W

 

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I just fast took a look of Valtonen book where are daily records of events during Lapland war. There was mentioned that Mörkö Moranes were used only between 10-18.10 1944 for operations.

 

p0UAPtd.png

 

This picture is taken in Kemi late November and MSv-624.  I guess we can debate is FAF insignia white or darkened. I would go to darkened but can't be sure.

 

Dy5zoiK.png

This is emergency landing to Oulu-lake  27.11. and plane is MSv-302

 

Br. Vesa

Edited by Vesa Jussila
adding pictures
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12 hours ago, Vesa Jussila said:

I just fast took a look of Valtonen book where are daily records of events during Lapland war. There was mentioned that Mörkö Moranes were used only between 10-18.10 1944 for operations.

 

Many thanks! Accordingly to some infos MSV 624 have got one victory during those few days beforethe crash landing.

I've got also today a reply from Musem. So it came very fast and is also very informative:

"The yellow eastern-front -markings were overpainted in the autumn of 1944 with great haste as the Lapland War against the Germans began. The swastika was replaced by the roundels on all FiAF planes by 1st of April 1945. Therefore, the Mörkö-Morane in your first links is incorrect, the swastika was still in use at the beginning of 1945 for example. The FiAF carried out its last combat flight on 4th of April, 1945 as a Dornier 17 Z (DN-55) performed a reconnaissance flight in northwestern Lapland. The Lapland War ended on April 27th 1945."

 It menas that for few first days of April 45 machines should operate with new roundels - especially Dornier 17 Z DN-55 :)

Vesa, for me swastikas are darkered on this Morko Morani (compare to snow). I have already bougt decals of darkered one by Techmod.

Best regards and many thanks to all who tried to help again. Hope to show my Morko on RFI, yet in February (???)

 

J-W

 

 

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Hi J-W,

 

MSv-624 din't score any victories during Lapland war. There can be victory from summer 1944. Current understanding is that there was no areal victories at all scored by FAF during Lapland war, there is so called Stuka insident but that is today thought as a paper victories.

 

Br. Vesa

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Hi Vesa, J-W et al,

 

Finnish AF history series book tells about MS-624 that it went to factory during summer 1944 and was handed over to Fighter Squadron 28 middle of September 1944. Based on that I believe toned down insignias. No victories mentioned there for this airframe. BTW - it was originally an MS 410 with four-gun wings, fixed radiator and new style windscreen so maybe a new type for J-W?

 

I agree, that yellow theater markings look good on MYrsky but I prefer the autumn livery without them but with lightning on the cowl and tail number as my (coming)FinAF collection has (will have) enough yellow stripes...

 

Cheers,

 

AaCee

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