1/48 Hasegawa Hurricane 'The Last of the Many'

[gingerbob]

Well, second time around for this project, but other than cut my finger getting something off a sprue and buying decals and paint, I never did much.  Actually, cowls/noses have been attached to their respective fuselage halves.

 

I'm going to investigate the possibility of using an Airfix fuselage, with Hasegawa Mk.IIC parts, but unless it looks really easy I'll just stick with Hase.

 

It'll be in the blue "air racing" paint job.  Back about the time that Billy Joel was making a splash with 'The Stranger' and '52nd Street', an older gent gave me a stack of RC modelling magazines.  There was a 3-view in one of this subject (which I bet I still have in a file somewhere lost in storage), and from that day I've wanted to build it.  Considering that it was the pride of the Hawker (_____) Company, and that they saw to its survival, it seems an appropriate choice for this GB.

Edited February 7, 2018 by gingerbob

[Col.]

Lovely subject! Welcome to the GB. Were you thinking of using the Airfix rear fuselage to employ the better rendition of the fabric sections?

[Greg in OK]

Looking forward to your build, we are going to have fun with all of these Hurricanes!!

 

Greg in OK

[gingerbob]

Well, I would have liked to convince myself that this GB was just the excuse I needed to buy the 1/32 Special Hobby Tempest II, but this is really not the time for such largesse...

[Col.]

6 hours ago, gingerbob said:

Well, I would have liked to convince myself that this GB was just the excuse I needed to buy the 1/32 Special Hobby Tempest II, but this is really not the time for such largesse...

We both need a copy of this kit in our stash! Do it, do it, do it  

[gingerbob]

22 hours ago, Col. said:

Were you thinking of using the Airfix rear fuselage to employ the better rendition of the fabric sections?

 

Well, basically yes.  But it was more in the spirit of a feasibility study than something I consider "necessary", and once I thought further I remembered the change of wing (or of details, which I consider harder than changing the whole wing).  The interface between fuselage and wing doesn't lend itself to easy switching on those two kits (especially with the "core" that gets involved).  Anyway, in a darkish blue it shouldn't look too "ribby".

 

As for the Tempest, maybe when I get my tax refund- or a job!

[Col.]

There's also that Modeller's Law which states Airfix will announce their new Mk.II soon as you've put the saw through the parts  

[Troy Smith]

On 06/02/2018 at 21:15, gingerbob said:

Well, second time around for this project, but other than cut my finger getting something off a sprue and buying decals and paint, I never did much.  Actually, cowls/noses have been attached to their respective fuselage halves.

 

I'm going to investigate the possibility of using an Airfix fuselage, with Hasegawa Mk.IIC parts, but unless it looks really easy I'll just stick with Hase.

 

it isn't, as the Airfix fuse lacks the correct bottom curve and wing roots.   I've wailed about this ad infinitum.

 

On 06/02/2018 at 22:12, Col. said:

Were you thinking of using the Airfix rear fuselage to employ the better rendition of the fabric sections?

the problem is Airfix stuffed up the fuselage, but in a different  way.

so while the fabric is a lot better, it's a fraction too long,  and slab sided. 

 

bob,  the Hase fuselage can be made less horrible if you can find something like the product John  Adams mentions here

.which would make it tolerable to a reasonably sane person,  I had a go on a scrap one I  was donated,   but it also made me realise the hase fuselage is nearly square behind and under the wing,  which is not really fixable.  

Not that visible,  but enough to make me give up on this route.  What is needed is basically an entire new fuselage.

(for both Hase and Airfix)

Yes,  I know,  I have a problem...  

 

A few other Hase glitches,  not  usually documented,  but easy enough to fix.

 

the upper cowl line is a bit flat, but if you bend the plastic up,  you can create the correct upper line,  it makes about a 1mm gap but that's easy to fill. (the Hase typhoon has a similar glitch as well)

 

Also, a while  back in Ju88 thread in Arc,  the famed Gaston Marty went on about how horribly thick the  Hase wing  is, it's not, but they got the tip wrong,  as it's a curve head-on, while the real thing is flat top and bottom,  like a very thin triangle.

see here

http://www.arcforums.com/forums/air/index.php?/topic/287183-icm-148-ju-88a5/

and the really important head on pic

https://www.airplane-pictures.net/photo/613785/pz865-royal-air-force-quot-battle-of-britain-memorial-flight-quot-hawker-hurricane-iic/

 

the fix is easy,  scrape tip flat,  and then reshape the wingtip lights.

you need to mask off the  main wing to avoid damage to the rest of the  detail.

 

Another useful fix bob,  get a pair of 4 spoke hubs from an Eduard Spitfire,  drill out the Hase Hurricane wheel hubs,  with 6mm or 1/4 inch drill (start with a smaller one though) and these will correct the undersize Hase hubs.

 

1 hour ago, Col. said:

There's also that Modeller's Law which states Airfix will announce their new Mk.II soon as you've put the saw through the parts

 

I don't see this happening,  Airfix didn't tool up their Hurricane I in a way to do this,  which would to do a sprue of all the common bits,  and other for the differences,  like they did with the Spit I/VB kits.

They have done 3 boxings of the Hurricane, and I  don't see a Mk.II anytime soon.

 

final repetive comment.... why have Trumpeter not scaled down their 1/24th Hurricane,  if they did, even with the flippin' recessed rivets it would be best in scale in both 48th and  72nd.

It's a rare beast that the more you look at the shapes,   the better it gets.   I think it was researched by whoever did the Sea Hawk and Wyvern, and it shows.

 

bob,  email me if you want.

 

And,  a couple of period colur shots here

 

 

I'll post this one as it a real beauty

 

cheers

T

 

 

[gingerbob]

I neglected to mention that the other thing I did first time around was "research"- my favorite part.  So I have a folder with all the "bluebird" photos I could find, including the one above.  But thanks, because it well illustrates my subject for those (anyone?) who weren't already familiar.  In fact, I think that's the specific appearance that I'm going for- no race numbers, just a basic civil paint job.  Subject to change on a whim, of course...

 

That photo also makes me wonder if ditching the Hasegawa fuselage might not be such a bad idea after all!  As you know, Troy, I enjoy investigating "impurities" and fixes, but you DO tend to reach nearly Gastonian proportions when it comes to Hurris, so forgive me if I attempt to plug my ears and say, "Nanananananana" from time to time   I've got very nearly all the 1/48 Hurris (no Italeri, but no great loss it seems) and had already thought it might be entertaining to do a side-by-side-by-side-by... comparison of the various fuselages.  That ought to kill a good part of the day! 

 

However, I also want to resist my normal tendency to find a way to further complicate any project, in the forlorn hope that I might actually eventually... build a model.  I know, I know:

 

[Troy Smith]

4 hours ago, gingerbob said:

That photo also makes me wonder if ditching the Hasegawa fuselage might not be such a bad idea after all!  As you know, Troy, I enjoy investigating "impurities" and fixes, but you DO tend to reach nearly Gastonian proportions when it comes to Hurris, so forgive me if I attempt to plug my ears and say, "Nanananananana" from time to time   I've got very nearly all the 1/48 Hurris (no Italeri, but no great loss it seems) and had already thought it might be entertaining to do a side-by-side-by-side-by... comparison of the various fuselages.  That ought to kill a good part of the day! 

 

Gastonian proportions....I'm flattered

 

Actually,  I  would like to add in my  defence,   I  do try  to come up with reasonable solutions that don't involve a major amount of work,  the few bits of  work I  have seen of  Gaston's seem to rely on excessive butchery and way too much putty, ie  way too much work.  And  his Spit XII soloution was at least partly wrong if you remember that.

 

Re the Hase fuselage,  the question is what fuselage can you use to replace it?  

 

The only other Mk.II fuselages in 1/48th are Monogram (no),  Hobbycraft, (based on Airfix Mk.I and trenchy) and Italeri (you  don't  have)

 

Or, it's a cut n' shut job,  as a Mk.I will need the nose extending,  the old  tool Airfix is raised line,  and not great,  the Pegasus is based on  the Hasegawa (same fabric problem)  and the new tool Airfix is,  again a Mk.I,   and is wrong,  and when you pull out that and a Hase you will see how much work combining the two would  be.....

Ironically  the much damned (with good reason ) Ark kits  fuselage is worth considering,  but again,  it's a Mk.I

at  this juncture,  my I  add a refresher of the problems conerting a Mk.I to Mk.II

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234980181-hawker-hurricane-propellers-and-spinners-a-modellers-guide/&do=findComment&comment=1960686

 

 

A pragmatic approach would be to first try to fix the Hase fuselage,  (given you have glued the nose on)  and the method used by John adams looks to be the easiest way  I  have found so far,   leaving aside the 'square section' fuselage issue (not very noticeable)

the underfuselage fabric step,  I tried cutting the bit of the rear of the wing,  splitting down the centre and adding to each fuse half, it helped,  but the easiest wuld be to sand off the fabric and add a scored bit of 5 thou plastic card to replace that lost detail.

 

I  can post a pic of the first  attempt with halfords plastci primer I  tried out on my scrapper,  which also has an attempt at the Mk.i to  Mk.II splice as well.

 

I think a solution that would satisfy most builder  is possible by justusing the Hase fuse is possible,   but not me....   but, I will  happily share some illustrations (presuming my cheap memory card reader works....)

 

cheers

T

 

 

 

[gingerbob]

Funny thing is after that comment I ended up back at this thread:

(note the first line!)  I printed and scaled the fuselage structure drawing shown by Steve at post 54 (p.3), and that seems to agree very neatly with the Hase fuselage, while the Airfix is a trifle long.  None of which is really the essential point in this project, but shows how easily I am able to lead myself astray!  Incidentally, I don't have the Ark kit, either.  I haven't gotten as far as investigating cross-sections and such.  Perhaps I shouldn't!

 

I've got enough Hase Hurris that I can sacrifice a fuselage (if that's what happens) to experimenting with trough-filling, but I'm not sure it is an exercise I really would have the patience for!

 

And now back to that thread- I'm only on page 5 so far.

 

 

[Troy Smith]

41 minutes ago, gingerbob said:

to experimenting with trough-filling, but I'm not sure it is an exercise I really would have the patience for!

 

perhaps you have been too bogged down in that vast thread.    I linked up @John Aero  method because it seemed to be reasonably simple and  fast too do.

My  brief experiment with the technique showed again another simple but effective technique by John Adams.

For clarity I'll quote the relevant details.

 

On 16/11/2017 at 14:50, John Aero said:

I have passed on my thoughts about the R.1 stringers but if you want a relatively easy solution, try this.  Scrape along the stringers to reduce the height and thickness using a curved blade (not a straight one). Then mask any areas having detail you wish to preserve. Spray the stringers with a couple of coats of Halfords Yellow Primer /Filler.

When dry polish the entire surface with a piece of T shirt material soaked in Iso-propal Alcohol, Acrylic thinner, or I prefer Lighter fuel (don't breathe it in). This will subtly sag the area between the stringers. Repeat if necessary. Finally, give a quick waft of grey primer

 

 

note the basic similarity to the Hase 'starved cow' look

 

On 16/11/2017 at 22:47, John Aero said:

First photo after a couple of coats.

 

 

Second photo, after another couple of coats of primer filler and a light sanding down. If you run a finger over the surface it is faceted just like a fabric finish should be.

 

 

Apart from waiting for the paint layers to dry, having dinner, coffee and a bit of Master Chef, several emails, there can't be twenty minutes work.

 

John

On 20/11/2017 at 17:34, John Aero said:

Just to make the process clear.

You need to reduce the height of the stringers a little and by using a small curved blade to scrape off the plastic, you will also slightly taper the stringers which will reduce their surface area.  The primer-filler paint fills up the trough between the stringers and also builds up on the stringers.

Use a sponge backed, fine abrasive pad, which will remove the paint from the stringer and the trough but as the plastic surface of the stringer becomes exposed, the paint in between erodes faster, leaving a gentle hollow.

 

Rubbing the surface with a cloth soaked in a thinner/IPA will not effect the plastic but it will gently remove and polish the the paint in between the stringers. I used this method on many of my biplane patterns (the stringers in my case were hard plastic sprue). In retrospect I should have assembled the parts but the object was a fix rather than a build in progress.

 

John

 

On 09/12/2017 at 16:11, John Aero said:

The secret is to use fine rubber sponge backed sanding pads for the initial sanding which will contour and just expose the plastic stringers but not reduce them.  Then use the T shirt cloth and solvent. This will gently abrade, smooth and polish the YFP (yellow primer filler) between the high points of the ribs or stringers. 

 

The fine /ultra fine sponge pads  (size approx 100 mm x 125 mm by  6 mm thick) I use I got from Car body finishing material suppliers and I cut them into smaller squares.

 

Cheer

 

John

 

I'm sure there  is a similar product in the USA, or even mr surfacer.  Maybe ask in a car body shop, or look for auto supplies

 

I got a box of sanding pad offcuts via ebay for £6 posted,   enough for 20 years use I'd say....or more.

 

53 minutes ago, gingerbob said:

Incidentally, I don't have the Ark kit, either.  I haven't gotten as far as investigating cross-sections and such.  Perhaps I shouldn't!

OK,  well I do, and the various Italeri kits as well.

Pragmatic solution, try to improve the Hase kit, and if  that does not succeed....

 

My card reader works,   would you like a few pics to show what my tweaks are,  and do?  

they are not difficult or demanding,  just requring some paitience and  care, and basic modelling skills..

I will have to dig out and photograph said work,  but if it helps,  and pics do make it a lot clearer.

 

cheers

T

.

 

 

 

[Graham Boak]

I had mr. Surfacer 500 recommended to me, and it seemed to work.  That was in 1/72.

[Col.]

You lads are certainly getting deep in to this but we are all learning from it. With the Hasegawa kit an option in my stash for this GB I'm paying attention to the problems you are highlighting and the solutions being offered in turn

[gingerbob]

Graham, I think it would take a lot of Mr. Surfacer.  Yes, Troy, I did look at John's technique.

 

5 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

would you like a few pics to show what my tweaks are,  and do? 

 

Tweaks of which? 

 

I just had a medium-length stare at the Hasegawa and Airfix fuselages, and I think if I WERE to attempt a swap, I'd follow the diagonal line coming up from the trailing edge (fairing) and then veer up toward the front of the doghouse.  That way I keep the Hase cockpit and wing/fuselage join (and Mk.II specific features) but gain all the lovely smoothness of the Airfix aft fuselage- including bypassing the awful Hase join underneath, which Airfix wouldn't need.  

[Troy Smith]

1 hour ago, gingerbob said:

Tweaks of which? 

specifically the Hasegawa.

 

Perhaps  some actual modelling images maybe of use....

 

I was pretty stoked when I read John's method,  thinking a reasonably easy  way to deal with fabric,   and then another rexamination of the Hase fuselage ....

Anyway, that's MY problem,   in less picky world,  I think the Hase fuselage can be made acceptable by John's method.

 

the others would be wheel drilling,   wing tips, cowl bulge comparison shots?  

 

2 hours ago, gingerbob said:

and I think if I WERE to attempt a swap, I'd follow the diagonal line coming up from the trailing edge (fairing) and then veer up toward the front of the doghouse.  That way I keep the Hase cockpit and wing/fuselagorthe join (and Mk.II specific features) but gain all the lovely smoothness of the Airfix aft fuselage- including bypassing the awful Hase join underneath, which Airfix wouldn't need.  

Maybe...  interesting point.

Actually it maybe of use to use the front bit of the Airfix underfuselage part, as it has two,  to replace the Hase underside... if it will fit..

Looks like I'm going to have to  dig out the Hurricane bits and do some pics?

 

cheers

T

 

[gingerbob]

Hi all,

 

Well, a couple days of staring at parts and head-scratching, a weekend doing other things, and I'm back with a little "back story".  Those of you who are intimately familiar with 1/48 Hurris can probably skip this one.  Please observe Exhibit A: (oh good, it worked- I'm still new at Imgur)

 

 

Just sneaking in at the left is Pegasus, then Hobbycraft (with a modified doghouse), Classic Airframes, Hasegawa, new Airfix, old Airfix.  I don't know how well you can see it, but note the scalloped appearance on the fuselage of most.  To me, the fabric-covered look of the new Airfix is vastly superior to the rest, with old Airfix probably a distant second.

 

Now for Exhibit B:

 

 

Look at the wing root- you can see that every kit but the new Airfix joins the wing and fuselage in (theoretically) the same way.  Yeah, there are slight dimensional variations from one to another, but same basic lines.  So, if you want to put something besides an 8-gun wing on the new Airfix, you're going to have some extra work to do.  (Note also the sink-mark at the base of the horizontal on new Airfix- tsk tsk!)  I should probably get some clearer pictures...  OK, port side:  (Hase and Airfix)

 

 

Some observations about that service panel just aft of the cockpit.  In that thread of Troy's I linked to, he says that the Airfix one is too "long" ("widescreen" aspect ratio, if you will).  But he also (rightly) complains about the inaccurate "borders" on the sides of the Hasegawa panel.  The Airfix IS slightly longer, but I think that it is more a visual trick: the borders of the Hase panel make it look taller and narrower, while the prominent fasteners along the bottom of the Airfix, and its lack of borders, makes it look squatter and wider than it really is. 

 

Now for the starboard side:

 

 

Hase's "nose bump" (the one on the top cowl) seems too big and prominent to me.  Airfix' seems better, though perhaps still not quite right.  Otherwise, I generally prefer the look of Hasegawa's metal panels (note that this one has Mk.II nose already joined).  But back to that service panel.  This time Hasegawa's forward edge is definitely too steep, while Airfix' agrees well with photos.  The two little "gills" on the Hase look to be in about the right location (and they are, or were, present on my subject) but that panel line is a bit closer to them than it should be.  My feeling is that the top corner is about right, but that line needs to angle back more.

 

So, what I'm thinkin', is that my evil scheme in post 15 above just might work, would leave me with a front end/wing join I like (except maybe some messing with the cowling details), and give me a rear fuselage that looks far better.  I've only got one (new) Airfix kit at present, but plenty of Hasegawas.  I want to know if it'll really work...

 

On 2/8/2018 at 5:15 AM, gingerbob said:

However, I also want to resist my normal tendency to find a way to further complicate any project...

 

Resistance is useless!  I don't blame Troy, mind you.  Don't miss the next exciting episode: 

 

"A Mighty Wind"

 

or...

 

"It's an ill wind that blows nobody any good."

 

Now, where's that razor saw...

[Troy Smith]

1 hour ago, gingerbob said:

I don't know how well you can see it, but note the scalloped appearance on the fuselage of most.  To me, the fabric-covered look of the new Airfix is vastly superior to the rest, with old Airfix probably a distant second.

I've not been with the kits, and owe you a longer response, , here and by email,  but briefly,  both Pegasus and Classic Airframes copied  the Hasegawa fuselage,  with the fictional fabric panel edges,  in CA kit case this also means having the 2nd starboard access hatch (not on the first two Hurricane batches, L**** and N****)  as well as the tropical vents (those two raised lines)

 

The Hobbycraft is basically cloned off the old  tool Airfix kit,  note the wing in that is too shallow,  though it does look the  part built up.

 

I did  have a poke at my scrapper Hase fuselage,  and the squareness I think can be fixed,   but, yes,  the new too Airfix fabric is good,  just a shame they messed up the wing/fuselage  joint.

 

A thought on the length,  I wonder if the CAD work used the lower fin cut out as the length point,  not the actaul rudder line,  and thus made the fin a little to far back?

It should be noted that both the 72nd fabric wing  and 48th new tool show the exact same problem over the Bentley drawings in 72nd (as published in Scale Model in 1980 and approved by Bentley as not being distorted) and  the 2005 1/48th prints from  SAM or MAM...

 

My spilt milk moment is I didn't go  over the 72nd fabric wing obsessively and spot the glicthes that then got scaled up to 1/48th ...   as I'd  have been over to Margate and banging on the door...

 

bob, try putting the new tool Airfix wheels through the wheel openings in the wing...   

 

 

 

[Graham Boak]

On 08/02/2018 at 10:15 PM, gingerbob said:

Graham, I think it would take a lot of Mr. Surfacer. 

 

Yep.  Serves you right for modelling in an awkward scale,  I actually used thinned Milliput spread with my fingers but it was terribly messy: I really should have masked it off first.  I suspect rather than Mr Surfacer, Mr Dissolved Putty would be better.  This does (or would) fill up the sag, but would do nothing for over-wide stringers.

 

[gingerbob]

OK, question for Troy, or Graham, or...?  I was comparing some bits this morning and noticed that the elevators are markedly different:

 

 

Hasegawa tailplane is the dark grey (common to all kits), Airfix is the light grey.  The photo might be a little misleading, but basically they are pretty well matched at the root, but Airfix tapers a lot more toward the tip.  Notice also that Airfix' trim tab protrudes from the line of the elevator.  I had seen a comment somewhere that a larger chord tab was fitted at some point (it might have been in the Mk.II manual, but I'll have to look again).  My impression, perhaps partly due to Hasegawa's common part, was that the elevator itself did not change (grow), but now I'm wondering.

 

I'll have to compare to old Airfix... edit: which I've now done.  Pretty much shaped like Hasegawa's. 

Edited February 18, 2018 by gingerbob

[gingerbob]

Gulp!

 

 

It's OK, though- I've got supervision:

 

 

To be continued...

[Col.]

That looks a bit radical!

[gingerbob]

Got them rough-cut.  Here's the starboard side:

 

 

I had to transfer the Airfix angle (the middle section of the cut) to the Hasegawa fuselage, because they differ.  I liked the canopy rails on the Airfix, but the interior walls better on Hasegawa.  Since I'm planning to use mostly Hasegawa cockpit parts (perhaps with some enhancements from Airfix) I thought it would make life easier to stick with Hase in that section.  It also makes for a more straightforward cut and join.

 

On the Airfix section, my razor saw wandered a little, which could have been terrible, but I think I just dodged a major problem.  Might have to do a small bit of repair along the trailing-edge fillet line, we'll see when I get the cut lines really honed.  Once I've got the fuselages sorted I can cut away that bit of fabric on the Hasegawa wing underside, but I want to have the Airfix underside nailed down before I do something I'll regret!

[Rabbit Leader]

Some serious Hurricane discussion and modelling going on here lads. I’ll watch this thread and learn from a far however (I’ll be honest and don’t take this the wrong way) I’ll probably baulk at ever publishing a Hurricane Build thread on here myself. It will end up as a good rivet counter discussion that will just confuse the  hell out of me and send the kit to your know where! 

 

Cheers and please keep the good chatter going.. Dave 

[gingerbob]

Sorry to keep you all in suspense- it's been school vacation week, and various distractions (heck, I even managed to apply for some jobs)- but I should be able to "regain focus" in the next few days...