rs2man Posted February 7, 2018 Author Share Posted February 7, 2018 50 minutes ago, Graham Boak said: Sorry rs2man and Denford, but the canopy windscreens are different and this affects the fuselage where they meet. A Mk.Vc canopy will not fit on a fuselage designed to take an earlier windscreen. Or vice versa, although this might be easier to fix. There is a concurrent thread on the making of a Mk.Vc from an Airfix Mk.I where this matter is encountered and described. It isn't something that an experienced modeller would find terribly difficult - but then look at the thread on the short-shot 1/48 Sea Fury for an illustration of what is/ isn't acceptable to all. Also, I suspect the wing on the new Mk.Vb is not a new tooling but a modification of the previous one. Is this because the Vc has the later screen with the internal armour ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Headroom Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 1 minute ago, rs2man said: Is this because the Vc has the later screen with the internal armour ? Yes. The rake of the two types of windscreen differ, with that of the Vc being shallower. As Graham says above the conversion of the Airfix kit is mine and this is how I tackled it A shim of plastic card to straighten the curve at the bottom and another on top once the Vc/IX type windscreen had been put in place, it’s all perfectly doable with a bit of patience and a spares box. Trevor 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tempestfan Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 But quite certainly the difference in mating surface doesn't require a completely new fuselage, provided research and design cater for the differing interface - perhaps by including some fuselage with the windscreen ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rs2man Posted February 7, 2018 Author Share Posted February 7, 2018 2 hours ago, johnd said: I know, I have two already finished and two more ready to go . Are there pictures of @rs2man's example? John. Yes , here's one , though it's not actually mine - it was built by Cathy , my fiancée It's the Vb(Trop) with Vokes filter . She added wheels & undercarriage doors from a Hasegawa Spit I & a prop from an Airfix Vb . The canopy is a mix of parts - the screen is the spare one from an Italeri IXc , the rear fixed portion is from the kit & the sliding section is a Falcon vacform 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VMA131Marine Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 I'm fairly certain that later Vb's, in particular the tropical ones had the windscreen with the internal armour. This was a noted problem with the HobbyBoss 1/32 Vb Trop kit; the box art showed the correct later windscreen, but the kit only contained the windscreen with the external armour. The way Airfix did their 1/48 Spitfire Vb's allows for both windscreen options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 Late Mk.Vb with the later canopy seems unlikely because of the different fuselage jigging and skinning required - beware of photos of Mk.Vcs inaccurately captioned as MkVb (although in the Middle East it is usually the opposite). Initially at least, Castle Bromwich were churning out MkVb whereas Supermarine and Westland were building Mk.Vc. CB did switch to the later design, certainly in time for the Mk.IX. Looking at the reviews of the Hobbyboss kit, they all represent aircraft with the early canopy, including the tropicalised one (Ian Gleed). The artwork for Gleed's aircraft is a bit half and half as far as the windshield goes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giorgio N Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 The internally armoured windscreen was introduced on the Spitfire Vb production line so it's possible to see aircrafts from this subvariant with both. Supermarine introduced the new windscreen with serial W3332 in May 1941 while Castle Bromwich aircrafts used the older windscreen into the EP range, aircrafts built in August 1942. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VMA131Marine Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 9 minutes ago, Graham Boak said: Late Mk.Vb with the later canopy seems unlikely because of the different fuselage jigging and skinning required - beware of photos of Mk.Vcs inaccurately captioned as MkVb (although in the Middle East it is usually the opposite). Initially at least, Castle Bromwich were churning out MkVb whereas Supermarine and Westland were building Mk.Vc. CB did switch to the later design, certainly in time for the Mk.IX. Looking at the reviews of the Hobbyboss kit, they all represent aircraft with the early canopy, including the tropicalised one (Ian Gleed). The artwork for Gleed's aircraft is a bit half and half as far as the windshield goes. So we're Airfix incorrect in providing the windscreen with the internal armour in their 1/48 Vb kit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VMA131Marine Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 3 minutes ago, Giorgio N said: The internally armoured windscreen was introduced on the Spitfire Vb production line so it's possible to see aircrafts from this subvariant with both. Supermarine introduced the new windscreen with serial W3332 in May 1941 while Castle Bromwich aircrafts used the older windscreen into the EP range, aircrafts built in August 1942. I was pretty sure this was the case. Thanks for providing the details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Work In Progress Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 2 hours ago, Graham Boak said: Sorry rs2man and Denford, but the canopy windscreens are different and this affects the fuselage where they meet. The late windscreen was a feature of mid to late production examples of the Vb as well as all the Vc production, so it is not a defining difference between the sub--marks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 (edited) Thanks for the correction. However I would still check any such options provided in kits against photographs. W3322 was the first to have the new canopy yes, but W3373 still had the earlier canopy, as did W3506 and W3528. Among Russian Mk.Vbs, EP210 had the earlier canopy whereas EP256 (June 1942) the later. However EP509 had the earlier. In both factory examples quoted (particularly CB), we are nearing the end of Mk.Vb production. Once the Mk.Vc began to be delivered in parallel, then it would be possible to move fuselages at an early stage if that benefitted production. (In which case, is it possible that some Mk.Vc existed with the earlier canopy?) Serials taken from a quick look through Wojtek Matusiak's Supermarine Spitfire Mk.5 and Spitfire The History. However, as the subject refers to a kit of a Mk.Vb which only comes with the early canopy, conversion of the fuselage to these late production examples requires the same modelling skill as that to a Mk.Vc. Edited February 7, 2018 by Graham Boak 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giorgio N Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 On 7/2/2018 at 4:17 PM, Graham Boak said: Thanks for the correction. However I would still check any such options provided in kits against photographs. W3322 was the first to have the new canopy yes, but W3373 still had the earlier canopy, as did W3506 and W3528. Among Russian Mk.Vbs, EP210 had the earlier canopy whereas EP256 (June 1942) the later. However EP509 had the earlier. In both factory examples quoted (particularly CB), we are nearing the end of Mk.Vb production. Once the Mk.Vc began to be delivered in parallel, then it would be possible to move fuselages at an early stage if that benefitted production. (In which case, is it possible that some Mk.Vc existed with the earlier canopy?) Serials taken from a quick look through Wojtek Matusiak's Supermarine Spitfire Mk.5 and Spitfire The History. However, as the subject refers to a kit of a Mk.Vb which only comes with the early canopy, conversion of the fuselage to these late production examples requires the same modelling skill as that to a Mk.Vc. This is true, the adoption of the new windscreen seems to have initially been on some airframes and not others. In any case good numbers of particularly Supermarine built Vb had the internally armoured type. That brings to the problem you mention: any modification of the Revell kit to an aircraft with this windscreen require some work. The same occurred with the Airfix kit and I often wondered why CBAF aircrafts seem to have been represented way more often than Supermarine ones by model companies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbob Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 (edited) On 2/7/2018 at 9:07 AM, Graham Boak said: Late Mk.Vb with the later canopy seems unlikely because of the different fuselage jigging and skinning required - beware of photos of Mk.Vcs inaccurately captioned as MkVb (although in the Middle East it is usually the opposite). Initially at least, Castle Bromwich were churning out MkVb whereas Supermarine and Westland were building Mk.Vc. CB did switch to the later design, certainly in time for the Mk.IX. By 'later canopy' do you mean the balloon hood, as opposed to the 'domed' hood as fitted to the Mk.I and Mk.II? I believe that this was a simple retrofit, though there were subtly different hoods to match the two different windscreens, and offhand I don't know if a balloon hood was available for the external armour glass type. If you are referring to fuselage jigging for introducing the internal glass windscreen, they didn't even change the "cutout" on the fuselage for the base of the windscreen. They just plopped the new one in place (there must have been some difference along the front edge?) and filled the gaps on the sides with that odd angled plate that is very plain to see. If you look at a cockpit shot of, for example, a Mk.IX, you can see the lack of continuity below the side windows of the windscreen. For example: As for Vb vs. Vc, Supermarine introduced the 'c' starting October '41, with something like 2-3 months overlap during the transition (last few bs Feb, when the 'c' rate also jumps up). Interestingly, this is just about the same time that they were introducing fittings for the slipper tank, so a handful of early (Sup built) Vcs were delivered without the fittings, and a small number of late Vb were delivered with (all of which may have become Trops and gone to Malta?) Westland switched from 'b' to 'c' around May '42, and because of their lower production rate, probably did so with less overlap of delivery dates, or a cleaner serial number division. Castle Bromwich did their first 'c' about the same time (May), but it was rejected by A&AEE, and it was early August before the next example emerged. There was also a longer transition period, with the last CB Vbs delivered in December '42. (October was when CB's 'c' production really moved beyond dribs and drabs.) For slipper tank fittings on CB/Westland Spits, one possible indication is introduction about August '42, but that's a very speculative idea. Edited February 9, 2018 by gingerbob 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbob Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 1 hour ago, Giorgio N said: That brings to the problem you mention: any modification of the Revell kit to an aircraft with this windscreen require some work. The same occurred with the Airfix kit and I often wondered why CBAF aircrafts seem to have been represented way more often than Supermarine ones by model companies. If you are referring to Vbs specifically, there are a couple of possible reasons. First of all, here are the approximate number produced by each factory (or "source"): Supermarine 780 (478 Vc) Castle Bromwich 3003 (1474) Westland 140 (495) Secondly, very few Supermarine 'b's became Trops (I think only 50), so IF you are thinking of a VbTrop, it is almost certainly going to be Castle Brom built (but also will have the internal glass windscreen?) Westland was late to the Spitfire party, which is why they made so few Vb (and 50 Mk.I). 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhantomBigStu Posted April 14, 2021 Share Posted April 14, 2021 (edited) Thread resurrection but have had this sitting in the stash for over a year as purchased it for the decals unnecessarily as it turned out and having given up on a VB conversion due to issues with parts salvaged from a prior build wondering what can be done to salvage a decent spitfire Vb (or otherwise)? Apologies if I have asked this before somewhere in the sticky thread couldn’t find it and this time i will bookmark any suggestions Edited April 14, 2021 by PhantomBigStu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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