SEAC Spitfire undersides

[Graham Boak]

Of course, these were Medium Sea Grey.  However, recent evidence has come to light that at least some Hurricanes had light blue (presumably Azure Blue) undersides.  I thought that I'd better check, in case similar evidence had appeared for Spitfire Mk.VIIIs.  We've only recently been made aware that codes were light blue and not white, so perhaps nothing should be considered firm until checked.

 

Mk.Vs too.

[Giorgio N]

Guess that if any VIII ever had azure undersurfaces in SEAC it would have to be one of the few delivered in theatre before the change in camo scheme on the production lines. This occurred somewhere in the JG serial block, I've found indication of some JF serialled aircrafts being sent to India, not many but some are there. Any later aircraft would have had medium sea grey undersurfaces from the factory

[Graham Boak]

In my original posting I was thinking more of later aircraft, in 1945.  Hmm, an immediate digression?  Given that 81 Sq flew their aircraft (new to them from an MU) from the Middle East to India, and included JF-serialled examples, does this imply Desert Schemed Mk.VIIIs in SEAC?  Not a suggestion I've seen before, nor do I recall photos showing that.  Therefore presumably the MU repainted those aircraft into SEAC colours before handing them over?  Or were all arrivals repainted into theatre colours on arrival?  Would they bother overpainting the undersides?

 

607 Sq also had JFxxx aircraft, 19 by my count which suggests a complete initial stocking.  But they came the sea route, and photos taken at Imphal show two dark uppersurface colors.  They weren't the first Mk.VIII unit, so presumably other JFxxx can be found in other units.

 

[Giorgio N]

We'd have to go through the dates of the various specifications to verify if by the time 81 Sqn entered action their aircrafts may have been repainted or not. Personally while I can't tell with certainty that no Spitfire VIII served in desert scheme in SEA, I believe this to be quite unlikely.

IIRC by late 1943 all aircrafts serving overseas, with the exception of desert areas, were supposed to be in DFS, so it may well be possible that 81 Sqn. aircrafts were repainted in this scheme... to be modified again once in India. Or they simply received the new finish once in India over the desert scheme... we have discussed here before a report from an ICI representative who visited India and reported on the colour schemes used. In the report he mentioned how Spit VIIIs had the green/brown scheme applied over a previous desert scheme. Of course we know that later aircrafts arrived in DFS

 

Speaking of blue undersurfaces, Nick Millman also mentioned the possible use of other blues in this thread:

 

Wonder if any new information have come to light in the meantime ? BTW, in the same thread there's also an excerpt of the ICI report mentioned above

[Graham Boak]

Thanks for reminding me about this thread.  The excerpt does talk of various grey undersides, which though suggesting that MSG was used, does leave the question open "which other greys?"  There is at least one more thread dealing with the colours on 607 Sq in Burma 1945, but searching back eight years hasn't found it. It has proven a reminder of just how much information on SEAC has passed across the screen in those years.

[303sqn]

Peter Malone goes into a lot of detail into the camouflage and markings of Spitfire Mk VIIIs in his book Aussie Eight that comes with Eduard's Dual Combo editions (1/72 and 1/48) scale. Unfortunately I think  not available anywhere else.

 

https://www.eduard.com/aussie-eight/

[gingerbob]

2 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

There is at least one more thread dealing with the colours on 607 Sq in Burma 1945

Graham, might this be what you were thinking of?

[Graham Boak]

Thanks for that, very interesting (I must check that I've put that data into my 607 database) but no.  I was thinking of the one that dealt with Frank Wooton's paintings (but I couldn't remember his surname when posting).  It still didn't work on Search, when I did remember, but I now notice that one of his paintings clearly shows the codes in white not light blue - so maybe that Eduard Mk.VIII won't end up with Xtradecal transfers after all!  Hmm.  What else is possible with Mk.VIIIs...

 

PS  That's a rhetorical question, guys.

Edited February 6, 2018 by Graham Boak

[Giorgio N]

17 hours ago, 303sqn said:

Peter Malone goes into a lot of detail into the camouflage and markings of Spitfire Mk VIIIs in his book Aussie Eight that comes with Eduard's Dual Combo editions (1/72 and 1/48) scale. Unfortunately I think  not available anywhere else.

 

https://www.eduard.com/aussie-eight/

 

Does the booklet also cover SEAC aircrafts or is it only on RAAF machines ? Peter is a researcher I most respect and trust, a true expert with a great passion for the subject. If he's covered the SEAC aircrafts too I have to get the booklet. Well, really I should gey it anyway...

 

17 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

Thanks for reminding me about this thread.  The excerpt does talk of various grey undersides, which though suggesting that MSG was used, does leave the question open "which other greys?"  There is at least one more thread dealing with the colours on 607 Sq in Burma 1945, but searching back eight years hasn't found it. It has proven a reminder of just how much information on SEAC has passed across the screen in those years.

 

Sometimes I feel that what we need would be someone with the time and the inclination to gather all the information we have traded over the years and put them together with a systematic approach. We have so much spread over countless threads that it's hard to find what we need when we need it.

To be honest sometimes I even find myself surprised to see my own posts from the past answering questions I may have today... I wonder how is it that I knew that thing years ago and now I have forgotten ???

[gingerbob]

Giorgio, I'm just the man for the job- I just need a comfortable office, a modestly lavish paycheck... oh, and since this is Britmodeller, some help with relocation costs.

[303sqn]

As the title says it is Spitfire Mk VIIIs.

[Graham Boak]

Eduard's site states it is about Australian Mk.VIIIs, and Peter Malone is the acknowledge expert on these.  To my knowledge he has not published anything on SEAC or Mediterranean Mk.VIIIs: if the  booklet does indeed contain as much on these, then it is worth being available separately.  Whether I wish to add yet another two Mk.VIIIs to my stock is another matter.

[gingerbob]

No Graham, you want to add four, so that I can have the extra book!  Heck, I'm halfway to buying a pair myself, despite my desperate attempts not to get sucked into 1/72 Spits (I already have a Mk.I and a Mk.22).  I guess I could still get the 1/48 set that includes the book?

 

One of the guys in my club built an VIII using the 1/72 kit decals, and the 'SEAC white' in roundel and codes seemed rather shockingly blue to me, but I admit that was just an impression, not a carefully checked conclusion.

[Graham Boak]

The Xtracolour codes look too intense to me, too, and Wooton shows 607's as white at a very late date, but were all squadrons consistent (possibly not), or did an instruction come through to change colours near the end of the campaign (possible but is so why did Thomas miss it)?  Horns of a dilemma here.  My mind is telling me that codes were white unless proven otherwise, but if so I've no case for another 607 Sq Mk.VIII.  Unless of course I assume that the JFxxx ones had Azure undersides at Imphal?  Although opening this thread on the off-chance of finding undersides were blue in 1945, I'm far from convinced of that and no-one has said enough to convince me otherwise.  That early Mk.VIIIs were arriving in Desert (blue undersides) in late 1943 and maybe not having the underside repainted does not convince me that they were not arriving in Day Fighter (grey undersides) by 1945.  Or just having the underside repainted anyway.

 

Perhaps someone who has the book, or Mr Malone himself, can please clarify these issues, or at least whether or not the book does address them.  In the meantime, I think it is an excellent idea for you to buy the 1/48 set.  It's not as though you can imagine any shortage of Mk.VIII options.

[Chuck1945]

I have the booklet. but it is not immediately available since I am away from my stash. I do recall that the Spitfire VIIIs featured all have a RAAF connection, but one (IIRC) was Aussie flown in the RAF and ended up in SEAC. Unfortunately that is all I remember, but I will be re-united with the kits tomorrow and will attempt to remember to check.

[Magpie22]

On 2/7/2018 at 11:15 PM, Graham Boak said:

The Xtracolour codes look too intense to me, too, and Wooton shows 607's as white at a very late date, but were all squadrons consistent (possibly not), or did an instruction come through to change colours near the end of the campaign (possible but is so why did Thomas miss it)?  Horns of a dilemma here.  My mind is telling me that codes were white unless proven otherwise, but if so I've no case for another 607 Sq Mk.VIII.  Unless of course I assume that the JFxxx ones had Azure undersides at Imphal?  Although opening this thread on the off-chance of finding undersides were blue in 1945, I'm far from convinced of that and no-one has said enough to convince me otherwise.  That early Mk.VIIIs were arriving in Desert (blue undersides) in late 1943 and maybe not having the underside repainted does not convince me that they were not arriving in Day Fighter (grey undersides) by 1945.  Or just having the underside repainted anyway.

 

Perhaps someone who has the book, or Mr Malone himself, can please clarify these issues, or at least whether or not the book does address them.  In the meantime, I think it is an excellent idea for you to buy the 1/48 set.  It's not as though you can imagine any shortage of Mk.VIII options.

Graham,

 

The Eduard book is principally about RAAF operated Spitfire VIIIs. However Eduard, to widen the choice of colour schemes covered in the kit, wanted it expanded slightly to cover aircraft flown by RAAF pilots in Burma and Europe. There are illustrations of MT687 of No. 451 Squadron in Southern France, (in DFS with Sky band over-painted and Red spinner), and of JF630, flown by Larry Cronin of No. 81 Squadron, in early 1944.

 

The latter is depicted in Desert Camouflage with early rudder and extended wingtips. The configuration and colours are based on interviews I did with Larry many years ago. He shot down a Dinah at 30,000+ ft, and made the comment that the Mk.VIII was great at altitude, but the extended tips were a hazard at low level. He flew the aircraft, still fitted with the extended tips, and still carrying desert camouflage, into Broadway in March 1944. He stated that after that, the squadron's surviving Spitfires were replaced with new aircraft fitted with "normal wingtips" and "a lower altitude engine". I failed to question him as to what he knew of the colours of those aircraft.,

 

Other authors, including Andrew Thomas and Steve Nichols, have stated that all the Mk.VIII Spitfires were repainted into a brown and green scheme. I have no doubt that this is correct for some later deliveries. However, it is quite clear from photos of earlier deliveries that the camouflage colour through the cockpit area is the lighter toned colour. This, to me, is a strong indicator that the aircraft carried Desert Camouflage, although some artists have drawn them as being finished in brown and green, ignoring the tones of the colours, or even reversing the colours with the brown, rather than the green through the cockpit area. I find it hard to accept that a workshop processing many aircraft would elect to reverse the colours. It also raise the question of whether the entire aircraft was repainted or whether just the Middle Stone was over-painted with Dark Earth Green.

 

I think the key may lie in collating a few dates and aircraft deliveries. As I understand it, RAF orders, circa 1943, required that day fighters serving abroad be finished in DFS, TLS or Desert Scheme. No. 81 Squadrons arrived in India in late 1943 and thus their desert camouflage was in accordance with orders. Now, we all know that, on 4 April 1944, AFO (I.) 69-70 was issued. In part it required that all fighters in the India area be finished in Dark Green and dark earth upper surfaces, with Medium sea grey under surfaces. The first Spitfire VIII aircraft arrived four months before this order was issued. Often an order followed the initiation of a practice, but four months is a hell of a long delay for an order to be issued. AFO's were issued regularly, (several a week), and I would expect that the order would have followed quite quickly, if in fact the practice had preceded the order. Incidentally that order also called for code letters to be in Sky. The date also raises the question of whether the order was issued as a response to desert camouflaged aircraft arriving in theatre.

 

Spitfires up to the MT series, (with the exception of possibly a few MD series A/C), would have arrived in India in Desert Camouflage. Most of these were repainted to some extent. Whether they were completely repainted or partially repainted is open to question. Perhaps both. I would need to know more about the depot system in India to hazard a definite opinion on the matter. However, I have noted on a few photos that there is still some stenciling visible on the Dark Earth portions of some A/C, indicating that only the Middle Stone portions were over-painted. If this was done, it is unlikely that they would have gone to the trouble of painting over the Azure Blue under surfaces. So, perhaps there were some in Dark Green, Dark Earth, Azure Blue.

 

As to the later MT and MV series A/C these were delivered in RAF DFS. On several photos, it can be discerned where the rear fuselage Sky band has been over-painted and the serial re-applied in a light colour, and stenciling is still visible on the A/C. This indicates to me that they were left in their DFS scheme with minimal over-painting. It is also interesting to note that AMO A.864/44 of September 1944 required day fighters operating abroad to be finished in the DFS. The broad thrust of this order was to simplify RAF camouflage requirements and, I believe, that it would have 'trumped' earlier India orders, local requirements like white bands and two tone blue roundels excepted.

 

I feel that the codes were Sky rather than White. This was the colour required by both AFO (I.) 69-70 and AMO A.864/44. Some, including Eduard for the kit, have interpreted them as being the light blue of the roundel.

 

Sorry to ramble on so much, and it doesn't really answer your original question, but you did summon me!

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

 

Edited February 9, 2018 by Magpie22
A kind reader pointed out to me that I made an error at the end of the third paragraph. That has been corrected.

[Graham Boak]

Thanks Peter, and it does answer a number of questions.

 

I have some doubts about the Day Fighter colours being retained in SEAC, in view of evidence such as the known repainting of later Mk.XIVs.  I think the local instructions would still override whatever colours the AM thought it necessary to paint deliveries in.  Standardisation of colour schemes was a long-standing demand from the factories to increase production and reduce costs.  Frank Wooton's painting "Dispersal, Mingaladon, Burma" shows 607 Sq Spitfires in DG/DE,  but another painting "Spitfire at Mingaladon" has an aircraft of another unit (Possibly 152 Sq) in apparently green and grey - although zooming in suggests the majority of the unit's aircraft in the background are in DG/DE too and the one in the foreground that most looks DG/OG could be a bit of artistic treatment of the lighting - the rather olive green is in the place of the brown on the other aircraft which as you suggest would be unlikely if repainted in that manner.

 

As for codes, Wooton has used white.

 

PS Another argument against DFS in use is that OG fades rather rapidly and we'd get photos of Spitfire Mk.VIIIs with very high contrast between the uppersurface colours, and I haven't seen any.

Edited February 8, 2018 by Graham Boak

[Gwart]

 

152 sqn i think,you can see the original DE ,with rough oversprayed MSG ? and DG.

 

Edited February 10, 2018 by Gwart
It's late.

[Magpie22]

On 2/8/2018 at 5:29 PM, Graham Boak said:

 

 

1 hour ago, Gwart said:

 

152 sqn i think,you can see the original DE ,with rough oversprayed MSG ? and DG.

 

Hi Gwart,

 

Not too sure what you are driving at there. The camouflage application under the nose is typical of a Keevil assembled aircraft. The 'bobble' of the demarcation towards the rear of the air intake suggests that, at least, there may have been a new upper surface colour applied in that area, (Middle Stone over-painted with Dark green??). Also the normal "12 Volt" stencil that would normally appear on the original camouflage cannot be seen. The markings for the cowling fastener alignments are also not visible on either colour. This may be due to the blurred photo, or may suggest that both upper surface colours are re-paints.

 

As to the actual colours, there is no way you can deduce those from the photo. Uppers could be Dark Green and Ocean grey or Dark Green and Dark Earth. Unders, could be Azure Blue or could be Medium Sea Grey. A date for the photo may be of some help.

 

Incidentally Graham, I take your point about Ocean Grey fading badly, however I don't believe that 'high contrast' between the colours is proof of that. Tonal contrast is subject to film type and age, filters, film and print processing, etc. I would be looking more towards uneven shading in the rendition of the OG. Get to see plenty of that on RAAF HF. VIIIs.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[Gwart]

Just showing how rough the overpainting could be.

[Peter Roberts]

Interesting photo - it is a little blurry but is that the serial number near the tip of the prop?

 

PR

Edited February 10, 2018 by Peter Roberts
spelling

[Magpie22]

6 hours ago, Peter Roberts said:

Interesting photo - it is a little blurry but is that the serial number near the tip of the prop?

 

PR

I believe that you are correct, Peter. When Spitfires were dismantled for overseas shipment, it was common practice to paint the A/C serial in 1" high Yellow characters on parts that were removed from the main part of the airframe. These included wing root fairings, engine cowlings, radio mast etc, and yes, the propeller. I have seen it on the props of some aircraft that were sent to Australia, so why would India be any different.

 

Go to

https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C237171

and you will find another example of the serial painted on the prop. In this case A58-613, ex MT831.

 

Cheers,

Peter M

[Peter Roberts]

Thanks Peter, appreciate the confirmation. (And the extra photo - much clearer)

 

There is a nice photo in Osprey ‘Spitfire Aces of Burma and the Pacific’ of F/O Doudy sitting in the cockpit of his Spitfire LZ975 with the last three digits of the serial clearly showing on the armour plate behind his head. Supports your suggestion that the labeling of components with the serial number of the plane happened in other theatres. (Does make sense dunnit  ) Didn’t realise that this extended to the prop as well though, until now.

 

PR

Edited February 11, 2018 by Peter Roberts