F-35 Question ?

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

Hello just a general question on the F-35 aircraft. Does anyone know if there are plans for a two seat variant ? Either for training new pilots ? Or to be used in a similar role to replace F16D’s, F-15E’s, & F-18D’s ? The USAF uses the “A” type to replace the single seat F-16’s and to a much lesser extent A-10’s. The navy will have the “C” to replace single seat types like the F-18C ? But I keep trying to figure out about the other types ? If anyone has thoughts on this or better specific knowledge it would be good to hear and see anything.

 

Dennis

[canberraman]

Dennis

No 2 seat F-35s will be built. All training will be done synthetically using simulators. The designations so far are F-35A (USAF), F-35B (STOVL USMC) and F-35C (USN) with foreign operators using variants of the F-35A and F-35B.

 

Regards

 

Mark

[mhaselden]

Despite valiant rearguard actions by SODCAT(*), the Naviguesser's union, the role of Navigator has gone the way of the Dodo.  The need for a second seat in fast jet combat aircraft has been steadily diminishing over time.  As aircraft computers have become more powerful and systems have become more integrated, the need for a carbon-based life-form to make a decision and throw a switch has, in large part, disappeared.  In addition, improvements in human-machine interface techniques have allowed far more information to be displayed in a more readily understandable manner, so much so that one person can monitor far more systems than was previously the case.  Frankly, the writing's been on the wall for the Navigator profession for years...the F-35 just happens to be the first incarnation of all those technologies in a platform that was never designed to have a second seat. 

 

* SODCAT = Society Of Directional Consultants and Allied Trades

Edited February 7, 2018 by mhaselden

[e8n2]

Here's a bit of a dichotomy for you.  The KC-135, at least up until the mid to late 80s as far as I know, always flew with a navigator, but never had a flight engineer.  Doesn't even have a seat for one.  The C-141 and C-5, both later aircraft, both had flight engineers, and by the 80s had pretty much done away with navigators except for very special missions, such as troop drops.

Later,

Dave

[hairystick]

Evolution in progress.

Two seat aircraft were the standard when operating them was complex (F-4's, etc) then the F-16 came onto the scene as a way of reducing costs. One pilot and one engine (the true fighter aircraft) became a revolutionary step forwards in the electronic age.

The F-35 has utilised electronics so much that the pilot can get his/her knitting finished during the mission.

Also, the Dave-B version has a large hairdryer where a second seat would be fitted anyway.

[TheRealMrEd]

Just read recently where pilots new to the F-35B need only six lessons in the simulator to be able to handle VTOL, etc.. With all the automation on board,  it's a much faster transition than ever before.

 

That being said, you probably need to have at least three Degrees to be able to simply understand the situational displays!

 

Ed

Edited April 29, 2018 by TheRealMrEd
typo

[mhaselden]

On ‎4‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 11:05 PM, TheRealMrEd said:

That being said, you probably need to have at least three Degrees to be able to simply understand the situational displays!

 

If the human-machine interface (HMI) specialists have done their job properly then the displays should be highly intuitive and easy to understand.  

[Graham Boak]

I recall the leading engineer working on cockpit automation at BAe around 2000 saying that when it came to two man crews, it wasn't the navigator that was going to be redundant.  The actual flying was the easiest part to automate.  But of course that didn't allow for the name remaining the same even when the role changed.

[XV107]

1 hour ago, mhaselden said:

 

If the human-machine interface (HMI) specialists have done their job properly then the displays should be highly intuitive and easy to understand.  

 

By all accounts, they're even easier than those on the Typhoon. With just a bit of background knowledge, I was able to decipher about 90% of what a Typhoon display was telling me within 15 minutes of sitting in the sim (aided by someone who actually flies the thing on a daily basis), and since I've no reason to doubt my informants regarding the F-35 displays...

 

As Graham says, the pilot's role is mainly managing the systems and fighting the aircraft, more of a weapon system operator with a bit of flying responsibility - although the importance of some of the wider airmanship/situational awareness honed as a result of being able to fly a fast jet shouldn't be entirely disregarded just yet.