Rag-wing BoB Hurricane.

[krow113]

I've been trying to nail down whether or not PCM's rag-wing Hurricane ( PCM 32010 )  is useable for a BoB tribute piece.

I have the Fly Mk1 on the way just in case , but would prefer to use the PCM kit.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thank you.

Edited February 6, 2018 by krow113

[Troy Smith]

yes, but there were not that many  fabric wing ones left in front line service  in the battle.

 

L1952, KW-Z, in the science museum was, as well as L1926, DU-J,  of 310 Czech

 

 

HTH, in a rush now.

[Graham Boak]

I think it is worth your while doing a search of this site, as I'm sure this has been brought up before and example(s) were found.  You might also like to consider Airfix's re-release of their 1/72 fabric-winged Hurricane in a BoB scheme.

 

Thanks for your x-post Troy, but  it does highlight one possible problem  - some aircraft were rewinged.  Or so it is said - you can't see from this single photo.

Edited February 4, 2018 by Graham Boak

[krow113]

...now you see the problem I'm trying to solve.

I prefer to work in 1/32 as the piece will incorporate this set from Andrea's :

 

Thanks for the help!

Edited February 4, 2018 by krow113

[Troy Smith]

19 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

I think it is worth your while doing a search of this site, as I'm sure this has been brought up before and example(s) were found.  You might also like to consider Airfix's re-release of their 1/72 fabric-winged Hurricane in a BoB scheme.

 

Thanks for your x-post Troy, but  it does highlight one possible problem  - some aircraft were rewinged.  Or so it is said - you can't see from this single photo.

 

L1926 ended up in Training Command, in Hurricane at War 2  there is a photo of L1926 nosed over, and clearly still fabric winged.   This is why i posted it. As I said, in a rush as off to work in a mo.

the image is here as well

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Yk88ycoGpOIC&pg=PA26&lpg=PA26&dq=hurricane+l1926&source=bl&ots=eYC92NkRlP&sig=eP48F4JDNkf1PGZOvRGOPoRggjE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi47PPx74zZAhUpDcAKHfB7Dp8Q6AEIODAF#v=onepage&q=hurricane l1926&f=false

 

a possible rewinging indicator is a serial repainted to 8 inch, as built L**** and N****  were 6 inch.

 

more later

[Graham Boak]

Which is why I added the adjective "single", with the thought that there might have been others, perhaps from the same photo shoot.

 

A change of serial size would presumably only occur after a re-covering of the fuselage, which may or may not have involved anything to do with the wings.  So it may be an indicator but no guarantee either way.

 

krow113: I only meant that you could use the Airfix kit as a reference for the codes and serial of one such example.

[tango98]

L2012 of 605 Sqn was a fabric wing Hurricane that was lost in the early afternoon of 15 September when, flown by Mike Cooper-Slipper, it collided with a Do 17 of the 5./KG 3 over Marden, Kent.

Unit code at that time was UP. Back in the early 80's I had the chance to discuss the incident with Mike who, despite what has been written about this incident in a number of books, assured me that the only reason for the collision was that as his regular aircraft was u/s, he took the squadron fabric-winged 'spare' (L2012) and lagging behind the rest of the squadron, broke out of cloud to be immediately confronted by the Do17 which he couldn't avoid in time thus resulting in the collision. He also related that had it been a metal winged Hurricane the outcome for him would definitely have been 'more interesting!' (his words).

I may or may not have the individual letter somewhere in my files but can't promise I'd be able to find it in a timely manner. However, my colleague AndyL frequents this DG so hopefully he'll see the post and may possibly be able to add the missing letter.

 

HTH

Dave

[Smithy]

1 hour ago, tango98 said:

L2012 of 605 Sqn was a fabric wing Hurricane

 

Hi Dave,

 

I was wondering whether this is correct as L2012 was in the final 170 of the first Hawker block. The final 170 were supposedly metal wings.

 

And Krow,

 

I just had a quick look in one of my ORBs, in this case 601 for July and noted the following fabric wing Hurris flying with 601 on or after the 10th July:

 

L1670 - usual pilot F/S Pond

L1819 - usual pilot Sgt Guy

L1917 - usual pilot Sgt Guy

L1951 - usual pilot P/O Grier

 

Some fabric wing Hurris were converted to metal wings at MUs but you'd have to check the aircraft movement cards to ascertain this but I do not have these.

 

HTH in some small way,

 

Tim

 

[tango98]

In the copy I have here of a minute from the PA to AMDP, dated 17.7.39, the first Hurricane delivered with metal wings was L2027 and goes on to say that it would be delivered sometime that week and that L2028 would be flying at Brooklands later that day followed by L2046 later that week.

I'll see if I can get a scan of this and follow-up documents up in this thread tomorrow.

 

Cheers

Dave

 

[krow113]

My limited resource' indicate that prop and spinner types are a little contentious as well.

The PCM kit gives options on the spinner and prop , but I think that trying to designate the equipment on a fighter plane of the time we are discussing will be just a matter of me picking the one I want and ducking the ensuing discussion.

Thanks for the input and I did search the forum for answers as well.

[Graham Boak]

Fabric-winged Hurricanes would be very unlikely to have Rotols.  For example, 607 sq re-equipped with Pxxxx Hurricanes in April 1940 but even then one with a Rotol was rare enough to draw specific comment.  Although there were a fair few 2-bladers in France. there'd be none left in front-line units in the BoB.  Which leaves the DH as a very firm favourite.

 

There's a first approximation which says that Gloster-built Hurricanes had Rotol by preference because the factories were only a few miles apart. Langley and Brooklands-built Hurricanes had DH.  From memory, what I've seen of the serials confirm this - allowing for the inevitable exceptions.

[krow113]

The PCM kit includes a Rotol prop assy, one of three prop options.

However other than designating 2 or 3 blades the instructions don't say which subject has the Rotol or the dH prop. Of the 5 offered subjects there is only one that comes close from March of '40 and even then the instructions call out ; L1656 , BUT THE DECALS AND RENDERING SHOW L1659.  "Ang on , don't step in that"!

I'm beginning to  think its a stretch using a ragwing for a BoB subject , and most likely a definitive answer will be elusive . 

However , some good input here and if some subjects can be 'nailed down' then all the better. I wanted to use an early Mk1 for the piece , as I think it would be real 'down & dirty ' by the summer of 1940.

Thanks and I still am interested in any findings.

[Troy Smith]

2 hours ago, krow113 said:

The PCM kit includes a Rotol prop assy, one of three prop options.

However other than designating 2 or 3 blades the instructions don't say which subject has the Rotol or the dH prop. Of the 5 offered subjects there is only one that comes close from March of '40 and even then the instructions call out ; L1656 , BUT THE DECALS AND RENDERING SHOW L1659.  "Ang on , don't step in that"!

I'm beginning to  think its a stretch using a ragwing for a BoB subject , and most likely a definitive answer will be elusive . 

None of the PCM fabric wing decal  options are going to be any use, you'll need to make your own codes, or get AM,  

 

But I gave you details of two BoB era fabric wing planes,   both documented,  L1926 with a photo, there is  famous photo of L1592 as KW-Z, a bit shot up a Croydon airport, but can't find it online,  so neither a stretch or elusive.

 

L1592 was restored by Hawkers in the 1950's, and is displayed in these markings at the Science Museum

see here for more

The pics have been PB'd, but should show with a embed fix.

 

 

regarding prop and spinners,  not really contentious,   but note there were two types of DH prop fitted

see

 

 

 

I have the PCM metal wing kit, but can't remember what DH version it offers

from the pics in the review here

http://www.hyperscale.com/2010/reviews/kits/pcm32010reviewbg_1.htm

 

the DH backplate look smaller, so it's likely the Dh Hurricane type, but have a look at the thread for more.

L1592 and L1926 both have the DH Hurricane unit though.

 

Note, I would not be surprised to find AM decals for L1926/DU-J, as it was a Czech squadron,  note the pic is late BoB era as well,  as 310 only became operational late on.

 

You have also been offered some other possibles, but not back up with photos, which are unfortunately rather rare, but there is enough info to make a reasonably good guess at the appearance.

 

HTH

T

 

 

 

[krow113]

Thanks for that Troy!

I do prefer to have a Canadian or English subject . 

I gather the serial numbers are the best way to track the history of certain planes.

I'll look into the numbers provided but as the various subjects diminish so does the chance I'll do them. I purchased the PCM kit for this but it may prove futile.

I 've not given up yet.....

Thanks and don't spend any more time on it than you already have!

 

edit: I have recorded the offered info here , for 6 examples of a ragwing Hurricane in service during the summer of 1940.

Edited February 5, 2018 by krow113

[dogsbody]

Some of the 20 Hurricanes that Canada received in 1939 were shipped back to Britain in 1940, along with No.1 Squadron, RCAF.

 

There is a bit of information in my posting from a few weeks ago.

 

 

 

Chris

Edited March 12, 2018 by dogsbody

[krow113]

I can mention at this time I have a complete graphic arts studio with a 30" cutter and print cut machine.

I will be able to make all of the codes and serial number masks and decals , as well as the roundels etc.

I make mask and decal sets for all of my kits as needed.

I just searched the web for the serial numbers provided here and got some good images etc for some of the serials.

No deciding factor just yet.

Thanks!

[Troy Smith]

7 hours ago, krow113 said:

I can mention at this time I have a complete graphic arts studio with a 30" cutter and print cut machine.

I will be able to make all of the codes and serial number masks and decals , as well as the roundels etc.

I make mask and decal sets for all of my kits as needed.

I just searched the web for the serial numbers provided here and got some good images etc for some of the serials.

No deciding factor just yet.

Thanks!

 

you may  find this of use if you have not seen it, nit the dimensions given

 

from http://www.boxartden.com/gallery/index.php/Profiles/Camoflage-Markings/03-Hawker-Hurricane

 

whole monograph scanned,  well worth a read.

 

the diagram is based on a Hawker drawing,  there are variations.  The position of the upper wing and fuselage roundels is very standard, and I see a lot of Hurricane models that get the upper wing roundel position wrong (roundel centre 1/3rd  of wingspan in from tip is the formula)

when built the L**** and N**** planes used 6 inch high serials,  but they were the same width as the 8"  shown above.  you can see these in photos in the monograph.

 

regarding code letters.  there was no standard,  or specified "font"  the commonest element is the width of the letter stroke is 6 inch,  and even that  varies, also no specified running order,   check that if you can, 

for example L1926 read DU-J of the port side,  but without a photo it could be DU-J, or J-DU on the starboard,    a search shows that Hurricanes in winter40/41 had them running DU-J,  but later on in 1943  when flying Spitfire VII's they had switched to X-DU  for example.

 

If tyou want a Canadian fabric wing, there may have been an old survivor with 1 SQ RCAF/401 Sq

you may find this of interest for BoB Canadian Hurricanes

note Dave aka @tango98  who posted above

Quote

As I've got chapter and verse on No.1's Hurricanes at home, 

 

he maybe able to give you a fabric wing survivor, and then you could use the other photos for a 'best guess' of appearance.

I think there is  maybe an image of one of the early planes sent to Canada as mentioned by Chris, which came back in the UK with 401?,   .but I'm not finding it, the other chap who might know is @airjiml2  who has been researching Canadian Hurricanes for years (he posted in Chris linked thread as well)

 

cheers

T

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[krow113]

Thank you Troy.

For your info Modellers Data File ( ISBN 0 9533465 1 X ) , on the Hurricane lists all of the serial numbers from each production run. And designate fabric wing production runs . They don't specify if the planes were in The Battle but do have final dispensation on many of the serial numbers.

There is also a drawing of code numbers in the font that was used. Although as a sign guy I know all of these were hand painted so there will be variations.

The book also has a large number of subject artworks , and one has risen to the top , but no real concrete decision yet.

Please let me know if any one helping here needs a set of custom masks for a Hurricane.

[Troy Smith]

31 minutes ago, krow113 said:

For your info Modellers Data File ( ISBN 0 9533465 1 X ) , on the Hurricane lists all of the serial numbers from each production run. And designate fabric wing production runs . They don't specify if the planes were in The Battle but do have final dispensation on many of the serial numbers.

There is also a drawing of code numbers in the font that was used. Although as a sign guy I know all of these were hand painted so there will be variations.

The book also has a large number of subject artworks , and one has risen to the top , but no real concrete decision yet.

Treat the Datafile with caution.

I only have a pdf of it, though it has been reprinted since, and I wasn't impressed, it has some useful information, but a fair few errors and omissions (compare the book with linked props and spinners thread for example, which is the best guide to the subject I know of, anywhere, so far! )

so the problem then is knowing what is right and wrong...

 

Though it should be noted that most Hurricane books are based on the work of Francis K Mason, and as such there are few very persistent Hurricane 'myths'  which get repeated in every book.

 

My thoughts on profiles are summed up in my sig line....  

 

regarding markings, while this is from Austin Motors, I would be surprised if the methods varied much at Hawkers,  and you might enjoy this, note how they are chalked on, and there is surprisingly little variation if you examine photos carefully.

go to 3.00 here, serial being painted then the  roundel.

 

 

 

 

from, has more links.

 

HTH

T

[krow113]

Wonderful!!

Saddening , maddeningly  excruciating to watch.

See how quickly a signpainter can do the work. 

i'll always remember the advent of computers in the sign industry , the complete disrespect shown by management to craftsmen , the wholesale trashing of one of the Earths most specialized skills , still upsetting .

Check out my Gotha thread on here , I layout 5 color polygonal night camo on my computer, and can't help but think of the master painter laying out the shapes with chalk on the full size bomber!

Thanks for that vid!

[Smithy]

Krow, just one thing to remember when it comes to serial numbers for your build, each manufacturer pretty much used a different font/style, therefore a Gloster serial number looks different from a Hawker serial. If you're interested PM me as I have examples of 16 different manufacturers' serial styles as they appeared in 1940. I would be happy to scan and send this to you if it helps.

 

Plus as well, I was having a quick look through my things and have a really lovely  portside photo of a fabric wing Hurri with 79 Sqn in August 1940 if you would like it.

 

Cheers,

 

Tim

[airjiml2]

The only 1 Squadron RCAF Hurricane that came from Canada that I've got photographic confirmation during the BoB is 323/YO-D.  It confirms fabric wing and Rotol prop and spinner.  When 1 Sqn arrived in Britain, its outdated Hurricanes were quickly replaced by the RAF with British-built examples. However, for some reason 311 and 323 were updated and transferred to the squadron. 323 is a rather special RCAF Hurricane as it is the only known RCAF HWE Hurricane to fire its guns in anger in Europe. On October 5, 1940, F/L Pitcher shot down a Bf 109 while flying 323. Sadly, the serial is not visible in the photo, but is believed that none of the ex-RCAF Hurricanes were assigned RAF serials during their RAF service.

 

Jim

Edited February 5, 2018 by airjiml2

[JackG]

Jim, that is great info on a unique Canadian Hurricane - is it known exactly what was done to update the aircraft?

 

According to the published diary of 1 Squadron RCAF, during 1940:

 

June 21 - unit arrives at Middle Wallop

June 25 - Hugh Dowding visits, and upon learning the squadron's Hurricane's were not of the latest type, has them replaced (June 30? ... does not state if this was completed by or initiated by said date).  At this time the Hurricanes brought over from Canada were still being uncrated and reassembled.

June 26 - first practice flight in the UK

July 4 - Squadron arrives at Croydon

July 16 - aircraft prepared with proper markings, YO prefix

 

regards,

Jack

[airjiml2]

Jack,

 

323 didn't get shipped to the UK until June 1940, as it had a accident in Canada and was being repaired by CCF.  It spent some time at the MUs in England and arrived with 1 Squadron mid September 1940.

 

I don't have any additional details on upgrades, but I'll tell you the photo with the Rotol prop was quite the shock when it was discovered.

 

Jim

[krow113]

4 hours ago, Smithy said:

Krow, just one thing to remember when it comes to serial numbers for your build, each manufacturer pretty much used a different font/style, therefore a Gloster serial number looks different from a Hawker serial. If you're interested PM me as I have examples of 16 different manufacturers' serial styles as they appeared in 1940. I would be happy to scan and send this to you if it helps.

 

Plus as well, I was having a quick look through my things and have a really lovely  portside photo of a fabric wing Hurri with 79 Sqn in August 1940 if you would like it.

 

Cheers,

 

Tim

 Thanks.

The main reason there are differences in the fonts would possibly be because they were all handpainted!

Every signpainter developed their own style , each would do the same font differently and have subtle differences due to the training , experience , conditions etc , etc. 

As explained to me by an older signpainter , the last one I ever met , he showed me how he did fonts his own way.

I'm interested in the serial styles you mention , if only to see the differences as described.

I'll see the pic of the plane as well.

Whenever you have a chance.

Thank you.