Sunderland Mk.1 DA@G

[malpaso]

I am just at the point of having to assemble and paint the turrets of my Mk.1 Sunderland so need to decide on the paint scheme.  Italeri offer some nice alternatives, but I am minded to split the difference and wonder if anyone knows if my idea is in the realms of possibility.

I prefer the brown/green/aluminium scheme but prefer the letters DA@G as a composition, that Italeri show in grey/green (yes I know those aren’t the official colour names) for Oban 1941.  According to Coastal Command 1939-45 the famous photo of DA@G was taken in Summer 1940 so I wonder if it would still have been in brown/green then?

Any observations welcomed, even if I end up following my own logic in the end!

Cheers

Will

Edited February 4, 2018 by malpaso
Blooming spellcheck

[rossm]

What I have been able to determine of Coastal Command camouflage is at http://www.hrmtech.com/sig/articles/coastal_cam.asp with the references I used noted.

 

All I have found on the Sunderland is that the Dk.Green/Dk.Earth uppers were due to a shortage of the Temperate Sea Scheme colours. I imagine that when more paint became available aircraft would only have been repainted at overhaul time as they were i) often kept on moorings and ii) large beasties that would have aborbed too much manpower for squadron level repaints. That's just a guess and doesn't help you unless you know the history of DA.G but note that Dk.Green/Dk.Earth usually show up as higher contrast than the Temperate Sea colours in B+W photos.

 

If this https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Short_Sunderland_I_210_Sqn_in_flight.jpg is the photo you have in mind it looks pretty certain to be Dk.Green/Dk.Earth to me.

Edited February 4, 2018 by rossm
Typos

[malpaso]

Rossm, thanks so much.  That's a very helpful message.  Yes the wiki photo is the one I'm thinking of - it seems to have appeared widely at the time and since, sometimes with a convoy in the background, if not you can usually see the sea in front has been retouched to hide a ship!

Cheers

Will

[rossm]

26 minutes ago, malpaso said:

Rossm, thanks so much.  That's a very helpful message.  Yes the wiki photo is the one I'm thinking of - it seems to have appeared widely at the time and since, sometimes with a convoy in the background, if not you can usually see the sea in front has been retouched to hide a ship!

Cheers

Will

 

Also available with ship - https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205218906

[LDSModeller]

On 2/4/2018 at 11:07 PM, malpaso said:

I am just at the point of having to assemble and paint the turrets of my Mk.1 Sunderland so need to decide on the paint scheme.  Italeri offer some nice alternatives, but I am minded to split the difference and wonder if anyone knows if my idea is in the realms of possibility.

I prefer the brown/green/aluminium scheme but prefer the letters DA@G as a composition, that Italeri show in grey/green (yes I know those aren’t the official colour names) for Oban 1941.  According to Coastal Command 1939-45 the famous photo of DA@G was taken in Summer 1940 so I wonder if it would still have been in brown/green then?

Any observations welcomed, even if I end up following my own logic in the end!

Cheers

Will

Hi Will,

 

Tricky one

 

Sunderland DA-G had the serial L2163 according to my copy of "Ocean Sentenial"  The Short Sunderland (John Hamlin).

 

The brief history given (some what paraphrased) is as follows:

First flew 17.06.1938

To 210 Squadron 24.06.1938 Coded "C" then "DA-G"

Fight with FW 200 29.01.40 - Rear Turret damaged

Lost a float in landing in heavy seas at Oban 25.09.1940

To 95 Squadron 16.01.1941 (95 Sqn served in West Africa)

To 228 Squadron 18.12.1942

15.01.1942 broke from mooring and driven ashore in gale at Stranraer

21.04.1942 to S & ML

17.02.1944 57 MU

Later became GI (Ground Instruction) Airframe 4891M at 1 MCTU Corsewell 12.10.1944

 

According my copy of Chaz Bowers "The Short Sunderland - Appendix 3 - Sunderland Log (again paraphrased)

L2163:

First flew 17.06.1938

To 210 Squadron 24.06.1938 -Coded "C"

To 240 Squadron May 1941

To 10 Squadron (RAAF) June 1941 coded "RB-P"

To 95 Squadron coded "G" -no date

To 228 Squadron 16.12.1941

Sank in gale Jan 1942

To mkrs 21.04.1943

 

The Italeri Painting/marking Instruction give the date for DA-G Oban 1941.

 

The differences between Hamlin and Bower are interesting!!!!

 

when 95 Squadron was commissioned  at least 3 Sunderland's/crews + Support crews were requisitioned from 210 Squadron

to make up the detachment to fly to Freetown West Africa.

Aircraft were Sunderland:

 

L2163 - later replaced by N9027 (DA-J)

N9027

P9623

T9041

 

Photo link of N9027 at Oban circa Aug-Sep 1940 - Note colouring
 

Sunderland N9027 Oban circa Aug - Sept 1940

 

Of Note also is the website for 95 Squadron,  Read from "Birth of 95 Squadron" the history of which relates to

the Sunderland's above and histories by Hamlin and Bower

95 Squadron Website

 

(My interest in 95 Squadron is purely because there were New Zealander's crewing its Sunderland's

F/O Baggot was a Kiwi, who flew the first Convoy Patrol from Freetown March 1941)

 

To your question as to whether L2163 could have worn Dk Earth/Dk Green/Aluminium?

Certainly I think yes in 1940 - looking at L2163's squadron mate N9027 in the photo link above

it appears to me N9027 is in Dk Earth/Dk Green/Aluminium.

The caveat to this of course is Black/White photos can not realistically give you exact colours. - in this case though

IMHO you can go with your colours of choice

 

Hope that helps?

 

Regards

 

Alan

 

Edited February 5, 2018 by LDSModeller
correct typing mistakes....

[rossm]

8 hours ago, LDSModeller said:

 

The differences between Hamlin and Bower are interesting!!!!

 

 

If you contact the RAF Museum they will, after a wait depending on the queue of requests, send you a copy of the movement card for an aircraft. Then you can make up your own mind as to the history. In my case I asked for one for a Beaufighter, had to wait about 4 weeks and then understood why errors can appear - the handwriting of some the entries was, shall we say, open to interpretation.

 

Having said that it's hard to explain the level of difference above unless two serials were confused.

[Graham Boak]

The briefer account in Air Britain's serial listing also omits 95 Sq. " 210/240/10 RAAF/228  Sunk in gale Stranraer 15.1.42 to 4891M".  It is possible that the aircraft was only temporarily detached to 95 Sq but never left the books of 210.  The history linked above does state that although L2163 was used in the build-up it was replaced before the unit transferred to North Africa: the website says "N9027 took the place of L2163 because it had flown fewer hours since its last major service."

[rossm]

13 hours ago, LDSModeller said:

..................

 

Photo link of N9027 at Oban circa Aug-Sep 1940 - Note colouring
 

Sunderland N9027 Oban circa Aug - Sept 1940

 

Of Note also is the website for 95 Squadron,  Read from "Birth of 95 Squadron" the history of which relates to

the Sunderland's above and histories by Hamlin and Bower

95 Squadron Website

 

(My interest in 95 Squadron is purely because there were New Zealander's crewing its Sunderland's

F/O Baggot was a Kiwi, who flew the first Convoy Patrol from Freetown March 1941)

 

To your question as to whether L2163 could have worn Dk Earth/Dk Green/Aluminium?

Certainly I think yes in 1940 - looking at L2163's squadron mate N9027 in the photo link above

it appears to me N9027 is in Dk Earth/Dk Green/Aluminium.

The caveat to this of course is Black/White photos can not realistically give you exact colours. - in this case though

IMHO you can go with your colours of choice

 

Hope that helps?

 

Regards

 

Alan

 

 

I was inclined to go along with you but while looking at N9027 in 'Ocean Sentinel' I saw the photo of it on p97 where it looks identical to the "new sea scheme" in Flight Magazine https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1939/1939-1- - 1374.html I can't think why it would have been repainted out of this scheme.

 

The difficulty of relying on B+W photos for colours is highlighted by the two photos of N9029 on p97 where they appear to be in different colours until you realise the red of the fin flash is darker than the blue in one photo but the opposite is true in the other - leading to a game of 'guess the filter' - coloured filters often being used in B+W photography to improve contrast.

 

One thought is to question the caption of the photo in your link and whether it really is N9027? Alternatively a strong filter could have been used which gave a good contrast to the Temperate Sea Scheme (as it became).

 

In any case, as far as the OP is concerned I'm still pretty much convinced L2163 is in Dk.Green and Dk.Earth in the photos he is interested in.