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Airbus A300B4 question


Turbofan

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Thank you AV O, I have googled 'Iberia A300B4' before but just about all the images I can find show a small flap which covers the area I'm interested in!

However your second link does seem to show that there is a fillet at the leading edge/fuselage joint area so I think I'll try to model it like that.

 

Cheers,

Ian

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Hold on! Not sure what the fillet is supposed to be about, but could it be you are talking of...

 

Most but the very, very, very earliest A300B2s (like some Air France machines) and all B4s had a Krueger flap where the wing leading edge meets the fuselage. That flap made such a huge difference in payload uplift, it became an enduring Airbus trademark extending to the A310 and onwards. (I seem to recall it might have been an option, with fitted aircraft receiving a K in the designation -- B2K, B4K. (They were often called "the hot-and-high B4K-200"...) Soon enough, though, I think it became essentially standard fit.)

 

Now, the Krueger flap in question was a two-piece affair. One part hinged forward from the lower wing surface at the very leading edge (you can see it retracted in the Google images link above). Another part extended sideways from the fuselage (that part had no sweep). The two met at an angle. It all looked rather awkward, Heath-Robinsonian even. But it worked... In fact, it did rather look like a sort of angular fairing.

 

Could this be what you mean?

 

The flap was usually left deployed during turnrounds, being retracted when the aeroplane was overnighted or otherwise resting for longer than an hour or so. (It was also retracted when the aeroplane was climbing out and left flush until it was about to land.)

 

Now, the Airfix A300 kit is really quite wonderful, or at least quite workmanlike. But it doesn't really have the Krueger flap, because it follows drawings of the "Air-Bus A300B" released sometime in 1972 and appeared at Woolworths (remember?) in, I think, late spring 1974 -- just as the odd 1/1 scale Air France example appeared in the skies overhead instead of the scheduled 727-200 or Caravelle (whose Airfix portraits were also plentifully available at Woolworths, at outrageous prices of coming up to a pound!)... The flap appeared some months after Air France service entry, or maybe even in 1975... Now, the Revell Airbus Beluga has the Krueger flap! It is drawn-in, as it were: a squiggly and rather odd-looking set of fuselage skin engravings just by the forward end of the wing leading edge.

 

---

 

Oh, and another thing altogether -- the Iberia A300B4s were, alongside the SAS ones and a small handful of others (MAS, China Air Lines of Taiwan, and err-r-r... well, that's it, I think) Pratt & Whitney JT9 powered. Braz does a rather nice JT9. Just mentioning...

 

I'd love to see the result of your project!

Edited by skippiebg
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I guess Turbofan is talking about the wing to body junction of the leading edge.

 

Was it sharp like on the A300B2 :

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Iran-Air/Airbus-A300B2-203/4008087/L 

 

or compound like this picture suggests :

https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/7979152?

Edited by AV O
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9 hours ago, skippiebg said:

Oh, and another thing altogether -- the Iberia A300B4s were, alongside the SAS ones and a small handful of others (MAS, China Air Lines of Taiwan, and err-r-r... well, that's it, I think) Pratt & Whitney JT9 powered

There were  couple of  later Iberia A300B4s that had GE engines though:

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Iberia/Airbus-A300B4-203/2708057/L

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Iberia/Airbus-A300B4-203/2055036/L

 

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, AV O said:

I guess Turbofan is talking about the wing to body junction of the leading edge.

 

Was it sharp ... or compound

Compound. It was identical in all airframes, even the later A300-600 and beyond. A300 wing profile and camber did not change from the first to the last airframe. The compound curve there is another Airbus trademark, in fact -- just look even at today's A380 and you'll find it. But only if you look from a certain narrow set of angles -- it's quite subtle. I don';t have the kit in front of me, but I think Airfix doesn't represent it as it would have meant paying attention to practically microns in that area. Neither does Revell on the Beluga, I think. Not sure it can be added by sculpting the kit, either, without doing more harm than good. I know I for one can't add it, being totally cack-handed...

 

1 hour ago, 26Decals said:

There were  couple of  later Iberia A300B4s that had GE engines though

 

 

 

 

Didn't know that! Thank you!

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11 hours ago, skippiebg said:

 

Now, the Krueger flap in question was a two-piece affair. One part hinged forward from the lower wing surface at the very leading edge (you can see it retracted in the Google images link above). Another part extended sideways from the fuselage (that part had no sweep). The two met at an angle. It all looked rather awkward, Heath-Robinsonian even. But it worked... In fact, it did rather look like a sort of angular fairing.

 

 

 

In fact four, including the retracting leading edge folding part of the flap and the small slat section.

 

Raw 2 and 20 of the selection below (with a 5 image/row display) :

https://www.google.fr/search?q=A300-600+slats&client=safari&rls=en&dcr=0&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwikoeyahofZAhWLPFAKHTNUAbAQsAQIMA&biw=1449&bih=871#imgrc=lcC2wrN7uE0pNM:

 

The curved or compound shape is visible at the wing root as is the small triangle coming out of the fuselage.

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7 minutes ago, AV O said:

 

 

In fact four, including the retracting leading edge folding part of the flap and the small slat section.

 

Raw 2 and 20 of the selection below (with a 5 image/row display) :

https://www.google.fr/search?q=A300-600+slats&client=safari&rls=en&dcr=0&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwikoeyahofZAhWLPFAKHTNUAbAQsAQIMA&biw=1449&bih=871#imgrc=lcC2wrN7uE0pNM:

 

The curved or compound shape is visible at the wing root as is the small triangle coming out of the fuselage.

Wow! Thank you for this wonderful set of views!

 

Now someone's opened my eyes, I'd say, looking at the 3rd pic on row 2, the Airfix kit has no fairing (the cusp or strake or whatever it is called that licks across from the wing leading edge and curls onto the side of the fiselage). I'd also say it would be very easy to make one, and it might make a difference.

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36 minutes ago, skippiebg said:

Wow! Thank you for this wonderful set of views!

 

Now someone's opened my eyes, I'd say, looking at the 3rd pic on row 2, the Airfix kit has no fairing (the cusp or strake or whatever it is called that licks across from the wing leading edge and curls onto the side of the fiselage). I'd also say it would be very easy to make one, and it might make a difference.

 

This is what Turbofan was looking for.

Now, did A300B2 have a similar wing root or a sharp edge ? That was my question earlier.

Few pictures of early A300 show the wing root, and unfortunately not as close as the one seen above) :

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Air-Inter/Airbus-A300B2-1C/2611356/L

https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/6748266

https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/185777

https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/181129

https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/181127

 

Note that A310 Krüger flap is different.

 

By the way, does anyone have a clue to this  (# 15) :

 

Cheers.

AV O

Edited by AV O
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Hmm... the time-honoured method of counting windows (rivets are too small at my age) tells me the actual shape was identical between early and later A300s, Krueger flap or no Krueger flap. There might be some infinitesimal difference, but we can ignore it, surely... In kitland, the Revell Beluga has it (I went to take a peek) and Airbus diznae, having an angled junction between wing and body. It IS a small difference, though!

 

By the way, AV O, re. your A310/A300-600 tailplane query, the tailplanes of the two were entirely identical. The Revell Beluga and Revell A310 (for all the latter's shortcomings) have them right.

Edited by skippiebg
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Oh, and at the risk of flooding the topic (the fairing forward of the leading edge aside) that aft of the trailing edge is wrong on the Airfix kit. (It might have been right for the A300B1 and possibly some of the earliest airframes, though I haven't checked.) It needs extending rearwards about 4-5mm (if memory serves) to reach beneath the emergency exit instead of ending before it. Again, the Beluga kit has it right. Easy to do, too, yet never ever done as fai as I know...

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2 minutes ago, Scott Garard said:

Found a video animation of the Krueger Flaps - deployment sequeance at the start and retraction towards the end:

 

 

Brilliant! I suppose the filliet that Turbofan is asking about is the mottled greenish/grey item in the video..?

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Wow, thanks everybody my question has been very comprehensively answered!!

The images which you linked to, AV O, provided confirmation that IB A300s did have the curved fillet at the leading edge/fuselage join, and so I have started to model these, but all the info which you provided Peter and Scott concerning the Krueger flaps has given me food for thought regarding including extended Krueger flaps for my model.

I originally had no plans to model these as I assumed they were only extended when the aircraft was in take off or landing configuration but as you mention Peter they are often left out during turnround hence my difficulty in finding pics of the fillet, even from ramp shots.

 

My LH A300 model from last year did not include the fillet or Krueger flaps and was built as Airfix intended but I'm wondering if I can model some Kruger flaps to partially hide this omission:hmmm:we'll have to see.

 

On 01/02/2018 at 11:28 PM, skippiebg said:

 

Oh, and another thing altogether -- the Iberia A300B4s were, alongside the SAS ones and a small handful of others (MAS, China Air Lines of Taiwan, and err-r-r... well, that's it, I think) Pratt & Whitney JT9 powered. Braz does a rather nice JT9. Just mentioning...

 

15 hours ago, 26Decals said:

Yes, I'm modelling one of the JT9 powered A300s as I need the Airfix CF6s for my Zvezda MD11 to late model DC10 conversion. It's the main reason I bought the Airfix A300 kit in the first place!

 

12 hours ago, skippiebg said:

Oh, and at the risk of flooding the topic (the fairing forward of the leading edge aside) that aft of the trailing edge is wrong on the Airfix kit. (It might have been right for the A300B1 and possibly some of the earliest airframes, though I haven't checked.) It needs extending rearwards about 4-5mm (if memory serves) to reach beneath the emergency exit instead of ending before it. Again, the Beluga kit has it right. Easy to do, too, yet never ever done as fai as I know...

I have already modified the trailing edge fairing. Other adjustments are a Bra.Z nose, improved the base of the vertical stabilizer, included the A/C packs(?) under the fuselage, repositioned tail skid/bumper and improved the APU exhaust. Oh, and I'm using the Revell  Beluga wings rather than the Airfix ones as they had too many sink marks although the work involved in mating them with the Airfix fuselage has proved to be far more than filling a few sink marks! I'll probably use the Revell undercarriage too. 

If anybody is interested I can post some pics of my improvements to the Airfix kit later this weekend.

 

13 hours ago, skippiebg said:

Oh, and you'd never guess what I found...

 

http://www.imgrum.org/media/1120914281651710244_1746000201

Nice find of the IB A300 model Peter. I'm hoping mine will turn out that good!

 

Cheers,

Ian

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Err-r... it would be graceless to carp, but... the AC intakes below the centre section were different on A300B2s/B4s. Rather a lot more straighter and more angular. Like planks of wood with NACA intakes, really... They became rounded on the A300-600 and A310.

 

Other than that, ta-s-ty! Looking forward to seeing it built!

Edited by skippiebg
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9 hours ago, Turbofan said:

Took some pics of my improvements to the wing fairings.

And here's what my uncorrected LH A300 looks like

Cheers,

Ian

Damn it all Ian.  I was getting on well with mine or so I thought. :tease:

 

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5 hours ago, skippiebg said:

the AC intakes below the centre section were different on A300B2s/B4s. Rather a lot more straighter and more angular. Like planks of wood with NACA intakes, really... They became rounded on the A300-600 and A310.

Hi Peter,

Yes the intakes do look quite rounded in these pics. They are the -600 ones from the Revell Beluga kit which I have done some straightening and reshaping but I take your point they do need more work as do the improved fairings fore and aft of the wings, the pics are still only wip pics. I also have to do some reworking of the wing scribing.

 

1 hour ago, stringbag said:

Damn it all Ian.  I was getting on well with mine or so I thought. :tease:

Chris, it doesn't mean I'll get it finished anytime soon, I managed to get a coat of gloss white on my Zvezda DC10 the other day so there's a good chance that might overtake the A300 yet. Don't worry the race is still on!!

 

Cheers,

Ian

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23 minutes ago, Turbofan said:

Chris, it doesn't mean I'll get it finished anytime soon, I managed to get a coat of gloss white on my Zvezda DC10 the other day so there's a good chance that might overtake the A300 yet. Don't worry the race is still on!!

 

Cheers,

Ian

I've re-scribed the fuselage and wings and had decided not to modify the fairings.  That was until I saw the way you have tackled these areas.  I suppose I have to do the same now.

What is this Zvezda DC-10 of which you speak?  Have I missed this release completely?

 

Chris.

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10 hours ago, stringbag said:

What is this Zvezda DC-10 of which you speak? 

Sorry not Zvezda, EE/Mikro Mir MD11 converted to a late model DC10. Of course, it's now been announced they will be kitting a DC10, but it was a fun/challenging conversion!

 

Cheers,

Ian

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