Seafire LR IIc profiles/photos (Recce version)

[ReccePhreak]

I am wanting to make one of the Seafire LR IIc photo-recce versions. I have been unable to find any photos or profile drawings of that variant.

Spitfire The History has very little info on that variant and no drawings or photos. I can make a Seafire FR IIIc no problem, and even have aftermarket decals for that one.

Can anybody help me with this elusive aircraft?

 

Larry

[Troy Smith]

hmm,   we have a small coterie of Seafire afficionados Larry,   the chap whose likely to know is @iang,   whose done a lot of primary research,  though you might just end up with a serial and a unit, and a 'best guess' from there.

 

Other folks who may know more are @gingerbob,  @85sqn, @Grey Beema,  who've all posted on Seafire threads,  be interesting to see what turns up.

 

HTH

T

[Grey Beema]

You are very kind @Troy Smith but my knowledge pales to insignificance compared to the other Seafire posters you listed.  

 

I'm sorry I don't have anything to hand however I am in the Cave over the weekend so I'll take a butchers at what I have then.  At a guess I would say that the camera fit would be similar to any Spitfire V or IX camera fit but I'll look over the weekend..

[gingerbob]

I'm afraid that FR Seafires are something I haven't learned much of anything about yet. 

[EwenS]

I've been back into the vaults and had a look at the Seafire related books I have.

 

David Brown's "The Seafire - The Spitfire that went to sea" notes that a number of LIIc airframes were taken in hand late in 1943 for "modification" to LRIIc standard along the lines of the Spitfire PR XIII so far as the camera installation was concerned, except that the aft vertical camera was deleted due to the location of the arrester hook.  So that would leave 1 vertical and 1 oblique camera mount. Further "No records remain of the number of conversions, but it was probably in the region of 30 aircraft;.....".  As no LRIII were produced until late 1944, these aircraft lingered on with 807, 809 and 879 until early 1945 when they left for the Far East.  Each squadron had 2 to 5 of these aircraft from a complement of around 24.

 

Crowood's Supermarine Seafire notes that all these conversions were carried out by Heston Aircraft Ltd and the first airframe was MB194 completed in July 1943.  According to Sturtivant's Fleet Air Arm Aircraft 1939 to 1945, this airframe had actually been built in Oct 1942 and had seen service before undergoing this conversion.  It was reported with 879 in May 1944 before another accident on 1 August 1944.  Ater repairs it went to 728 at Ta Kali, Malta between 4/45 & 9/45.

 

Other airframes noted as LRIIc in Sturtivant include

MB193 crashed 7/43 but with 807 3/44-4/44 then crashed again and with 879 in 3/45

MB237

MB246

MB304 crashed 6/43 but with 809 by 1/45 and then 879 in 3/45

 

But no photos I'm afraid.

 

Interestingly, Morgan's Spitfire notes that the first Spitfire PRXIII conversion was completed in Dec 1942 by Heston Aircraft Ltd (along with the other 24 conversions from existing airframes I assume) and the type entered operational service in April 1943 i.e. similar timeframe to LRIIc conversions.

 

So it is probably a fair bet that the LRIIc and PRXIII instalations were identical except as noted above for one less camera.

[Graham Boak]

According to Ballance (FAA Squadrons 3rd edition) 879 Sq. retained L.IIc/LR.IIc until November 1945, and was carrying out photo reconnaissance of Singapore 5-6 September 1945, although the type is not specified.  Probably from HMS Attacker.  If we can assume (reasonably but not fully convincingly) that all the MB serials existing in the front line at this time were the LRs, then we have MB317 coded AE.  The texts  for 807 and 809 squadrons have no mention of LR.IIc, probably because the type was integrated into L.IIc units as mentioned above.

[EwenS]

1 hour ago, Graham Boak said:

According to Ballance (FAA Squadrons 3rd edition) 879 Sq. retained L.IIc/LR.IIc until November 1945, and was carrying out photo reconnaissance of Singapore 5-6 September 1945, although the type is not specified.  Probably from HMS Attacker.  If we can assume (reasonably but not fully convincingly) that all the MB serials existing in the front line at this time were the LRs, then we have MB317 coded AE.  The texts  for 807 and 809 squadrons have no mention of LR.IIc, probably because the type was integrated into L.IIc units as mentioned above.

Unfortunately I think this is a leap too far.  All Ballance says is that LII/LIIc were operated between 6/43 and 11/45 with an example being MB317 AE.

MB317 left the factory with a Merlin 45 (i.e. as a IIc) but clearly at somepoint got an engine change to a Merlin 32 to make it a LIIc.

According to Sturtivant MB317 was with 879 between 9/44 and 3/45 as A-E and then A-S.  Between 5/45 and 8/45 it was with 728 on Malta.  The A in the code referred to HMS Attacker 879's home ship.  When Attacker operated in the East Indies her aircraft codes had changed to D4+. This change probably happened when she picked up her squadron in Egypt in April 1945 to fit with the rest of 4 Fighter Wing (807 D5+ from 6/44 on Hunter and 809 D6+ on Stalker from 3/45 per Ballance)

[ReccePhreak]

WOW! Fantastic replies so far.

I have the camera fit covered, as there is a great drawing of a Seafire camera fit on page 120 of the SAM Modellers Datafile 3 - The Supermarine Spitfire Part 1: Merlin Powered.

 

The hard part, as you all seem to agree on, is what codes & markings to use.I would absolutely love to do one that was used to carry out photo reconnaissance of Singapore 5-6 September 1945. I would just have to cobble together the proper markings, since I am sure there are no specific aftermarket decals for such a plane. I also love the Seafire paint schemes used during that period.

 

Larry

Edited January 27, 2018 by ReccePhreak
Spelling

[Graham Boak]

Ballance has a photo of an L.III of 879 Sq. D.4B flying over Singapore harbour  - it could perhaps be an FR version but which?  And what serial?  D.4Y  was PR292 which Sturtivant calls an LFR.III, and its service dates fit the period.  So you could use D.4B as a guide to the markings of D.4Y, but whether it has the full camera fit or just a sideways-looking one I couldn't say.

 

On D.4B the SEAC roundel is carried high on the fuselage, with the D closely abutting, the 4 normally spaced forward and then a large gap to the B, which is positioned below the mast and the rear of the canopy.  The spinner is Sky, or White?

 

PS  Could the LFR designation imply only the sideways-looking camera rather than the full PR fit?  Could the air-to-air photo in Ballance actually have been taken from D.4Y's camera?  Maybe...

Edited January 26, 2018 by Graham Boak

[gingerbob]

I suspect "LFR" is just an error.

[Graham Boak]

Me again.  In the On Target Profile, we have D5J PR171 of HMS Hunter which "may have been modified to a photorecce FR.III with 807 Sq." and is so shown, covering the re-occupation of Rangoon.  Sturtivant does indeed describe it as an FR.III, although its crash into the barrier in April may have been just too soon for Rangoon.  (A source not previously quoted above is Jerry Scutt's Spitfire in Action - not looked at that yet.)

[Seahawk]

2 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

Me again.  In the On Target Profile, we have D5J PR171 of HMS Hunter which "may have been modified to a photorecce FR.III with 807 Sq." and is so shown, covering the re-occupation of Rangoon.  Sturtivant does indeed describe it as an FR.III, although its crash into the barrier in April may have been just too soon for Rangoon.  (A source not previously quoted above is Jerry Scutt's Spitfire in Action - not looked at that yet.)

No photos of LR.IIs.  But a photo of PR171 D5J (captioned as an L.III) after the barrier crash in May 45.  No obvious ventral camera port.  And of course it's a starboard side shot so we can't see if there's a camera port in the port radio hatch.  

[EwenS]

Seems like I'm not the only one scouring the library this pm!

I've been going through the various serial batches in Sturtivant and Morgan until my eyes are spinning.  But it is turning up some info.

 

NX983 This one has a complicated history (built as Spitfire Vb & converted to Seafire Ib and then on seemingly to a IIc) but was modified (eventually) to LR standards and shipped to the Middle East.  The final comment is that it went to 879 sqn in 12/44.

 

According to Morgan the final 129 Seafire III airframes from Cunliffe Owen were built as PR (FR?) versions. That would mean (theoretically) all Seafire III from serial NN613 to 641, and following PX and SP production batches (after allowing for the mix of versions and serial allocations at this time). However both Sturtivant & Morgan have the PX batch of 50 specifically as III/LFIII respectively in their detailed lists. So that could push us back to NN558. So this means all Cunliffe Owen production after 30/11/44 (excluding the PX batch) would be FRIII.  This ties in with a comment I read earlier in Brown's book that LR/FR variants beyond the LRIIc conversions did not appear until late 1944.

 

Only problem is that only NN621 (801/880 squadron on Implacable in 1945) is noted by Sturtivant as a FRIII. But NN629 was aboard Attacker in August when on the 3rd it crashed and was offloaded in Trincomalee.  Also PX938 (noted as a III by Sturtivant) was in 879 9/45.

 

Very few of these airframes beyond the NN batch seem to have found their way to combat squadrons by the end of the war with only one of the SP batch finding its way to India (SP137) with a few being packed to go.  NN610 and 611 were at Clark Field in the Phillipines in 5/45 & 6/45 for testing against comparitive American & Japanese aircraft and some photos exist of these.  Unfortunately the first photo doesn't appear to be an FR (no apparent camera window in the fuselage side).  As for the second photo, why o why do they always want to photograph the stbd side when you want the port side!

From other manufacturers Sturtivant notes PP969 (880 sqn) built by Westland 9/44, PR171 (807 Hunter 5/45 ) built 11/44, PR241 (880 sqn) built 12/44, RX157 (never left UK) built 1/45, RX219,224,236,239,241,242,243,244,245,246,311,353.  Not many of this last batch seem to have found their way to operational sqns.  Some however got to the far east as replacements.  It needs to be remembered that some time could pass before an aircraft is delivered from a factory to an MU for any required modifications, then to storage until issued to a unit.  I've not looked at what it was for UK built equipment but for lend lease from the US it could be 4-6 months. Given that the war moved east from May 1945 I can see how many of the aircraft produced in spring 1945 in the UK were still part of that process.  It does help to explain the need to keep at least some of the LRIIc in service through 1945.

 

Eyes for the Phoenix has a colour plate of PR171 D5J of 807 sqn.  This shows it in Temperate Sea Scheme upper & Sky below.  White recognition bands on wings and tail as per usual for East Indies, 16" roundels (blue white as per EIF standard), black serial and Royal Navy lettering.  The only issue I have with it is that there are no fuselage camera windows and no supporting photo to confirm that.

 

I'm beginning to wonder if these rare beasts would be what is now referrred to as FFBNW (Fitted For But Not With) i.e. all the internal works are there but none of the externals which could rapidly be fitted if the need arose.

 

The RN record keeping is also a problem.  Sturtivant in the first paragraph of the introduction to FAA Fixed Wing Aircraft since 1946 (yes I've been looking in that one as well!) comments "The main problem has been that, unlike the RAF, the RN has tended to regard aircraft as pieces of equipment and as such has seen no necessity to retain relevant documentation for any length of time once an aircraft has gone out of service.  This is a considerable handicap to researchers". That means that we may never tie this down.  When you look at the fates of these aircraft, the numbers lost in accidents is phenomenal but probably explains the RN attitude to the record keeping.

 

Anyway I hope that some of this is of help to you.  Its certainly helped me clarify a few things in my knowledge base.

[EwenS]

Another thought.  Ditch the idea of an LRIIc and go for a plain simple silver LIII instead.  HMS Hunter, 807 sqn, September 1945 in Singapore harbour. Much simpler - there was only one - until someone informs me otherwise.

 

 

Serial was NN300.  Codes, wing bands and anti glare panel are black. Just Google it for plenty of images.

[Seahawk]

19 minutes ago, EwenS said:

Eyes for the Phoenix has a colour plate of PR171 D5J of 807 sqn.  This shows it in Temperate Sea Scheme upper & Sky below.  White recognition bands on wings and tail as per usual for East Indies, 16" roundels (blue white as per EIF standard), black serial and Royal Navy lettering.  The only issue I have with it is that there are no fuselage camera windows and no supporting photo to confirm that.

All those camo and marking details square with what's visible in the starboard side view on p.55 of SS 39 Spitfire In Action, though the tail and serial are not in view. 

[Seahawk]

2 minutes ago, EwenS said:

Another thought.  Ditch the idea of an LRIIc and go for a plain simple silver LIII instead.  ... Much simpler - there was only one - until someone informs me otherwise.

No, there was another one: 141/S on Indefatigable.  Don't think I know the serial but sure @iang does.

[EwenS]

I just knew it!

Must say though I've never come across that one before despite all my years of studying the BPF carriers. 

You never stop learning.

[Seahawk]

5 minutes ago, EwenS said:

I just knew it!

Must say though I've never come across that one before despite all my years of studying the BPF carriers. 

You never stop learning.

It's visible for a few frames in the DVD "Royal Navy at War - A Sailor's view: British Pacific and East Indies Fleets".  As they say, "you need this DVD": full of excellent footage of both ships and aircraft.  O/T: another highlight is a few frames showing some of the Hellcats detached to Formidable for NF and PR duties.

Edited January 26, 2018 by Seahawk

[EwenS]

I've got it and will need to revisit it.  I do recall the Formidable Hellcats.

[Troy Smith]

40 minutes ago, Seahawk said:

No, there was another one: 141/S on Indefatigable.  Don't think I know the serial but sure @iang does.

Seafire III's  in 1945. by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

 

see the link for more but

Quote

What a magnificent photo - it was taken aboard HMS Indefatibable (R10) in mid-Tasman, while en route from Australia to New Zealand in November 1944. Pictureed on deck are the Seafire IIs of No.s 887 and 894 Sqdns, which, along with No.s 820 (Avenger) and 1770 (Seafire) Sqdns, comprised the 7th Carrier Air Group which formed on June 30th 1945 and disbanded on returning home, on March 15th 1946, when Indefatigable flew her paying-off pennant for the last time as an aircraft carrier. The Air Group Commander was Lt-Cdr Nigel G. ("Buster" ) Hallett, DSC*, RN from June 30th 1945 to April 23rd 1946; his "personal" Seafire III NN452: S-141 is partly visible in the lower right of the piicture. This aircraft was in a natural metal (silver) finish, its camouflage (and serial) having been removed.

 

interesting thread, some great information collation and sharing going on.

 

cheers

T

[iang]

At one point there were at least three Seafires on Indefatigable in natural metal finish (I have a photo with three in frame).  I assume these were after VJ day.  The Seafires were 141/S, 146/S and unknown. Serials for these are more of a problem. 146/S was PR256 (Reynolds) for Iceberg. Whether 146/S was still PR2456 after VJ day I don't know. However, from a modelling perspective it doesn't matter because it probably didn't carry a serial after the paint was stripped. 141/S doesn't show a serial on the film Seahawk refers to (though it is often assigned  to Buster Hallet NN452, but have seen no primary evidence for this).  In May 1945 S/141 was NF521, I believe.

 

HTH

Edited January 26, 2018 by iang
senior moment

[Graham Boak]

Fitted For But Not With would lack the camera but still have the window on the port side.  I see no reason to doubt that each carrier would have a few aircraft capable of using the camera: this was the way it was with the handful of LR.IIc and the option was clearly intended to be retained with the Mk.III.  Besides, the Admiralty was always fond of multi-role aircraft and it's just too operationally useful.

 

Carrier photos normally show the starboard side because that's where the photographer was stated.  Land photos usually show the port side because that's where the pilot gets in.

[ReccePhreak]

7 hours ago, EwenS said:

Seems like I'm not the only one scouring the library this pm!

 

Eyes for the Phoenix has a colour plate of PR171 D5J of 807 sqn.  This shows it in Temperate Sea Scheme upper & Sky below.  White recognition bands on wings and tail as per usual for East Indies, 16" roundels (blue white as per EIF standard), black serial and Royal Navy lettering.  The only issue I have with it is that there are no fuselage camera windows and no supporting photo to confirm that.

 

Anyway I hope that some of this is of help to you.  Its certainly helped me clarify a few things in my knowledge base.

According to the caption (On page 251) for PR171, it is a Seafire FR.III, as is the plane below it.

I also want to do a Seafire FR.III, but I already have aftermarket decals for one.

 

Larry

[ReccePhreak]

6 hours ago, EwenS said:

Another thought.  Ditch the idea of an LRIIc and go for a plain simple silver LIII instead.  HMS Hunter, 807 sqn, September 1945 in Singapore harbour. Much simpler - there was only one - until someone informs me otherwise.

 

 

Serial was NN300.  Codes, wing bands and anti glare panel are black. Just Google it for plenty of images.

Sorry, but I only build recce aircraft and Thai aircraft, so I will keep searching. 

[Seahawk]

On ‎26‎/‎01‎/‎2018 at 5:56 PM, Seahawk said:

No photos of LR.IIs.  But a photo of PR171 D5J (captioned as an L.III) after the barrier crash in May 45.  No obvious ventral camera port.  And of course it's a starboard side shot so we can't see if there's a camera port in the port radio hatch.  

BTW the old Tally Ho! Canada sheet 7121 had markings for PR171 D5J (as well as Wildcat V JV435 S of 890 Sq (Atheling), Hellcat FR.II JW723 6G of 804 Sq (Ameer) and Avenger II JZ525 P1X of 849 Sq (Victorious)).   It looks as if PR171's upper wing roundels are standard EIF size, not the reduced size apparent in the photo.  Good luck in finding the sheet!