Four Brewster Buffalo's

[cocky05d]

Me asking questions again ,i have 4 of said kits ,i have some Finnish Air force Decals for one .

The other 3 will be an RAF far East ,aircraft ,a Dutch and a US Naval one .Got 2 sets of PE ,one for the cockpits of the RAF and the Finnish one's .

The other 2 i had started OOB and can't get the cockpit items off .

Anyway, was there much difference between the RAF ,Dutch and Finnish Aircraft ?

I can see that there was some difference to the US Naval one regards the rear cockpit area .

Also did they all carry bombs ? Would like to block the holes on the bottom wings where they attach .

 

Sorry if it all seems a bit complex .any help would be great.

[leyreynolds]

Some years  ago the Australian Plastic Modellers Association mag' had an article detailing the differences. I think it's currently available in electronic format.

[Graham Boak]

There was considerable difference between the early aircraft, which include the Finnish and prewar USN ones (Model 239), and the later variants used by the British and the Dutch (Model 339/439).  The main point of difference was the nose, including the engine cowling.  I suspect that Wiki and other internet sources will make it clearer for you, given these hints, although the cross-posting Ley's reference is likely to provide all the answers.

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

Ive found a photo about a year ago cant remember where. However it shows the frames on the rear cockpit aren't frames at all.

It seems they're just overlapping pieces of perspex ?  Because im not sure who owns the rights i cant post it but will PM it to you if you’d like ?

 

Dennis

[Troy Smith]

6 hours ago, cocky05d said:

Me asking questions again ,i have 4 of said kits ,i have some Finnish Air force Decals for one .

 

scale? Base kits?    This information will help determine what you have compared to what you want to do before you get into anything else.

EDIt I  now notice the tag that says Tamiya 1/48th.

 

you can use the Tamiya to build the options tamiya give, which is either a boxing to just build a US Navy plane, an F2A-2, or one with extra parts and decals for RAF, Dutch and US Navy.

 

what you can't build without some major work is a Finnish one, different engine, and thus a different nose

note difference in cowl lengths and rear of cowl to wing, as well as exhaust position 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brewster_F2A_Buffalo#Variants

 

it seems that Special Hobby have reboxed the Classic Airframes F2A-1/B239 kit, which is what you need for the Finnish plame

https://www.scalemates.com/kits/121900-classic-airframes-4100-brewster-f2a-1-buffalo

 

 

I'm sure this got asked recently about what kit for what...

Hmm, this is worth a read for 72nd

 

 

 

Not seen him on here for a while but @jimmaas  quite literally has written the book on them (Squadron Signal in action at least)

https://www.amazon.co.uk/F2A-Buffalo-Action-Aircraft-No/dp/0897471962

as this is for modellers it does give details of the airframe changes

also  @mhaselden   is a Buffalo enthusiast 

 

these should give them notifications. 

Edited January 23, 2018 by Troy Smith
additions, corrections

[LDSModeller]

5 hours ago, cocky05d said:

Me asking questions again ,i have 4 of said kits ,i have some Finnish Air force Decals for one .

The other 3 will be an RAF far East ,aircraft ,a Dutch and a US Naval one .Got 2 sets of PE ,one for the cockpits of the RAF and the Finnish one's .

The other 2 i had started OOB and can't get the cockpit items off .

Anyway, was there much difference between the RAF ,Dutch and Finnish Aircraft ?

I can see that there was some difference to the US Naval one regards the rear cockpit area .

Also did they all carry bombs ? Would like to block the holes on the bottom wings where they attach .

 

Sorry if it all seems a bit complex .any help would be great.

Differences can/did include:

Props, Cuffed and Non cuffed (RAF had non Cuffed)

Engines 1000hp/1200hp

Cockpit requirements, RAF 339E had different requirements to USN/Finnish/Dutch

Rear wheel, types carrier vs Pneumatic larger tyre on RAF/Dutch

RAF has full glazed front wind shield as opposed to USN with tube

RAF had Ammunition round counter in cockpit (starboard inst panel) as opposed to USN with counter on wing gun bump

RAF had pointed rear tail cone opposed to USN F2A1-1/2 cone on Finnish/Dutch

RAF had flare dispenser Starboard side rear (never seen it shown on models)

RAF had cine gun in Starboard wing leading edge, where USN F2A had it mounted on frame attached to Starboard cowling

USN only only one with Carrier arrestor hook

RAF had different seat (square) as opposed to USN rounded as well as different pilot's seat harness

RAF had oxygen bottle in famed metal weave starboard side to protect pilot

RAF Gun sight replaced US Compass at top of Inst panel

RAF has two landing lights, others had one, navigation/ID wing light on top of wings deleted

Radio aerials

 

Probably other things I will think of after I have posted this

 

Regards

 

Alan

 

[72modeler]

BW-239/F2A-1 were the aircraft sold to Finland; BW-339B/F2A-2 were the models sold to Belgium; BW339C/D/F2A-2 were the models sold to the Dutch, and BW-339E/F2A-2 were the models sold to Britain. There were detail  differences between all of the export Brewsters. If nobody comes forth with a good summary of the differences between the types, I can put something together for you. Some good references are:

Squadron 1061/F2A Buffalo in Action

Aerodata Special 6204/USN Carrier Fighters of WW2

Hamlyn Guide to American Aircraft of WW2

Kari Stenman/Finnish Fighter Colors, volume 1

Naval Fighters/ F2A Buffalo

IIRC, Osprey also released a volume on Buffalo Aces, or maybe two volumes- one on RAF and one on Finnish Buffalo Aces

 

BTW- what scale are your four kits, and are they all by the same manufacturer?

Mike

Edited January 23, 2018 by 72modeler
added references, corrected misinformation

[LDSModeller]

16 minutes ago, 72modeler said:

BW-239/F2A-1 were the aircraft sold to Finland; BW-339B/F2A-2 were the models sold to Belgium; BW339C/D/F2A-2 were the models sold to the Dutch, and BW-339E/F2A-3 were the models sold to Britain. There were detail  differences between all of the export Brewsters. If nobody comes forth with a good summary of the differences between the types, I can put something together for you. Some good references are:

Squadron 1061/F2A Buffalo in Action

Aerodata Special 6204/USN Carrier Fighters of WW2

Hamlyn Guide to American Aircraft of WW2

Kari Stenman/Finnish Fighter Colors, volume 1

Naval Fighters/ F2A Buffalo

IIRC, Osprey also released a volume on Buffalo Aces, or maybe two volumes- one on RAF and one on Finnish Buffalo Aces

 

BTW- what scale are your four kits, and are they all by the same manufacturer?

Mike

Hi Mike,

 

Brewster 339E/D were based on F2A-2 not F2A-3, Britain never purchased 339-23

Brewster 339-23 was modified F2A-3 purchased by Dutch East Indies, but never received due to Dutch capitulation, so served with

USAAF/RAAF in Aussie

 

I have listed above in my post details of differences between US F2A-2 and RAF 339E

 

Regrds

 

Alan

 

[72modeler]

37 minutes ago, LDSModeller said:

Hi Mike,

 

Brewster 339E/D were based on F2A-2 not F2A-3, Britain never purchased 339-23

Brewster 339-23 was modified F2A-3 purchased by Dutch East Indies, but never received due to Dutch capitulation, so served with

USAAF/RAAF in Aussie

 

I have listed above in my post details of differences between US F2A-2 and RAF 339E

 

Regrds

 

Alan

 

Alan,

You are right- my mistake! I was in a hurry to get the post out and was flipping back and forth between four references, so made the mistake. I will correct my post accordingly. Thanks for setting me straight.

Mike

[cocky05d]

Wow ,a lot to take in .Seems i will have to use the kit decals to do the RAF ,Dutch and US Navy versions ,and get the Special hobby kit for the Finnish Aircraft .

 

Once again thanks for all the replies and help.

[mhaselden]

2 hours ago, cocky05d said:

Wow ,a lot to take in .Seems i will have to use the kit decals to do the RAF ,Dutch and US Navy versions ,and get the Special hobby kit for the Finnish Aircraft .

 

Once again thanks for all the replies and help.

 

Also note the US Navy flew 3 different variants, including the F2A-1 which was broadly similar to the Finnish airframe but with an arrestor hook and naval equipment internally.  So...you can make a USN machine but be careful to pick the right variant. 

 

As to bombs, the Buffalo could carry them but they weren't used operationally by the RAF or USN.  The Dutch may (stress MAY) have flown a few bombing sorties at the end of the NEI Campaign but I'm working from VERY hazy memory so don't quote me.  Bottom line - you can fill in the holes under the wings for all of them and have a perfectly acceptable, indeed a more operationally representative, depiction of the aircraft.

[cocky05d]

14 minutes ago, mhaselden said:

 

Also note the US Navy flew 3 different variants, including the F2A-1 which was broadly similar to the Finnish airframe but with an arrestor hook and naval equipment internally.  So...you can make a USN machine but be careful to pick the right variant. 

 

As to bombs, the Buffalo could carry them but they weren't used operationally by the RAF or USN.  The Dutch may (stress MAY) have flown a few bombing sorties at the end of the NEI Campaign but I'm working from VERY hazy memory so don't quote me.  Bottom line - you can fill in the holes under the wings for all of them and have a perfectly acceptable, indeed a more operationally representative, depiction of the aircraft.

Hi ,thanks for the reply ,just got a Special Hobby Buffalo in Finnish service off ebay .So the line up is going to be .

Finnish 

RAF 

Dutch air force 

US Navy .Don't what to do with the spare Tamiya one ,would a yellow wings version is accurate ?

[mhaselden]

Yes, you can make a pre-hostilities USN airframe from the Tamiya kit...just be careful to select an F2A-2 and not an F2A-1 or F2A-3 (yeah, I know...I'm just throwing letters and numbers at you ). 

 

Here's one of my favourite pics of a Navy F2A-2 with, I believe, red cowling, fuselage and wing stripes from the USS Lexington:

 

 

Edited January 23, 2018 by mhaselden

[cocky05d]

Hi ,thanks for the reply and photo .

One of the Tamiya kits is an old one ,in silver plastic .don't know what F number that was .

Any leads on yellow wing marking decals  for a pre war model?

[72modeler]

cocky,

 

I'm guessing by your post above that you are using 1/48 scale kits. I was able to cobble together a brief description of the three variants you mentioned. concentrating mainly on the external features of each type. This is not an all-inclusive list, but as some of my Buffalo references are loaned out at the moment, this should get you in the ballpark. Couple of comments- the 'G' series engines were civil versions, many of which were remanufactured DC-3 engines; the other thing to watch out for is overall length, as there were three variations:  B239/F2A-1's at 26'; B339/F2A-2's at 25' 7"; and F2A-3's at 26' 4"

 

B239/F2A-1

OAL 26'; R-1820-G5 engine; landing light under port wing; 2 .50cal fuselage guns and 2 .50 cal. wing guns; blunt tail cone with retractable small tail wheel; armored seat back and headrest added by the Finns; no arrestor hook, catapault fittings or life raft container; USN RDF removed and replaced with a simpler unit; HS 10' 1" non-cuffed prop with a small spinner; telescopic gun sight replaced with a ring and bead sight and  later on by a reflector sight similar to the Revi C3; straight pitot; belly windows either skinned or painted over; exhaust in a notch in the cowling at the lower edge

 

B339B/F2A-2

OAL 25' 7" R-1820-G105 engine; CE 10' 3" cuffed prop with a large spinner;  2 .50 cal fuselage and 2 .50 cal wing guns; longer, tapered tail cone with a nav light; small retractable tail wheel; all USN equipment removed; L shaped pitot; exhaust moved up the fuselage and clear of the cowling; line of vents added vertically behind the cowling; belly windows had the last 4 square panels replaced by 2 longer, oval-shaped ones; fixed post gun sight; blunt tailcone

 

B339C/D/F2A2

OAL 25' 7"; R-1820G-105 engine for 1st 24; R-1820-G205 engine for the last 48; 10' 3" uncuffed CE prop with large spinner; large, fixed tailwheel;  2 .303 fuselage guns and 2 .50cal wing guns; only a few had a reflector sight fitted-  most had a ring and bead sight; L shaped pitot; blunt tailcone; belly windows same as B339B

 

B339E/F2A-2

OAL 25' 7"; R-1820G-105 with a 10' 1" HS uncuffed prop with a large spinner; armored glass behind windscreen; canopy had a large oval-shaped moveable panel in the 1st pane  on the port side only; Mk III reflector sight; 2 .50 cal fuselage and 2 .50 cal wing guns; large, fixed tail wheel; straight pitot; additional landing light added under stbd. wing; blunt tailcone; all position lights removed; belly windows same as B339B

 

Hope this will be useful to you and the rest of the BM'ers.

Mike

Edited January 23, 2018 by 72modeler
corrected spelling

[cocky05d]

8 minutes ago, 72modeler said:

cocky,

 

I'm guessing by your post above that you are using 1/48 scale kits. I was able to cobble together a brief description of the three variants you mentioned. concentrating mainly on the external features of each type. This is not an all-inclusive list, but as some of my Buffalo references are loaned out at the moment, this should get you in the ballpark. Couple of comments- the 'G' series engines were civil versions, many of which were remanufactured DC-3 engines; the other thing to watch out for is overall length, as there were three variations:  B239/F2A-1's at 26'; B339/F2A-2's at 25' 7"; and F2A-3's at 26' 4"

 

B239/F2A-1

OAL 26'; R-1820-G5 engine; landing light under port wing; 2 .50cal fuselage guns and 2 .50 cal. wing guns; blunt tail cone with retractable small tail wheel; armored seat back and headrest added by the Finns; no arrestor hook, catapault fittings or life raft container; USN RDF removed and replaced with a simpler unit; HS 10' 1" non-cuffed prop with a small spinner; telescopic gun sight replaced with a ring and bead sight and  later on by a reflector sight similar to the Revi C3; straight pitot; belly windows either skinned or painted over; exhaust in a notch in the cowling at the lower edge

 

B339B/F2A-2

OAL 25' 7" R-1820-G105 engine; CE 10' 3" cuffed prop with a large spinner;  2 .50 cal fuselage and 2 .50 cal wing guns; longer, tapered tail cone with a nav light; small retractable tail wheel; all USN equipment removed; L shaped pitot; exhaust moved up the fuselage and clear of the cowling; line of vents added vertically behind the cowling; belly windows had the last 4 square panels replaced by 2 longer, oval-shaped ones; fixed post gun sight; blunt tailcone

 

B339C/D/F2A2

OAL 25' 7"; R-1820G-105 engine for 1st 24; R-1820-G205 engine for the last 48; 10' 3" uncuffed CE prop with large spinner; large, fixed tailwheel;  2 .303 fuselage guns and 2 .50cal wing guns; only a few had a reflector sight fitted-  most had a ring and bead sight; L shaped pitot; blunt tailcone; belly windows same as B339B

 

339E/F2A-2

OAL 25' 7"; R-1820G-105 with a 10' 1" HS uncuffed prop with a large spinner; armored glass behind windscreen; canopy had a large oval-shaped moveable panel in the 1st pane  on the port side only; Mk III reflector sight; 2 .50 cal fuselage and 2 .50 cal wing guns; large, fixed tail wheel; straight pitot; additional landing light added under stbd. wing; blunt tailcone; all position lights removed; belly windows same as B339B

 

Hope this will be useful to you and the rest of the BM'ers.

Mike

Hi thanks for the reply ,seen some decals on a British model shop website .

[Troy Smith]

1 hour ago, cocky05d said:

don't know what F number that was .

Any leads on yellow wing marking decals  for a pre war model?

 

IIRC the silver plastic Tamiya kit  is a specific pre war USN boxing.    Ask in the wanted section if someone has spare decals.

 

the "F"  means fighter.   All the letters mean something

F2A-2

F=fighter

2 = model

A= Brewster

-2 = block number, or variant

 

this is why with Corsairs a F4U-1 is a Vought built plane,  (U=Vought)  while a FG-1 is Goodyear  and a F3A-1 is Brewster built.

 

 

see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1922_United_States_Navy_aircraft_designation_system

 

for a fuller explanation and more codes

 

HTH

T

 

 

[jimmaas]

You could always do your spare Tamiya kit as USAAF.  Yes, they had them.  You'd build using the same parts as the Dutch 339C/D.  The camouflage is two shades of green (close match, the two green shades from Vietnam era USAAF tactical aircraft) over either aluminium paint or light blue (disputed issue).  Star on blue disc upper left, lower right wing, "U.S. ARMY" in black under the wings. If you want to get really fancy, there's a reflector gunsight in the cockpit.

 

[72modeler]

2 hours ago, jimmaas said:

You could always do your spare Tamiya kit as USAAF.  Yes, they had them.  You'd build using the same parts as the Dutch 339C/D.  The camouflage is two shades of green (close match, the two green shades from Vietnam era USAAF tactical aircraft) over either aluminium paint or light blue (disputed issue).  Star on blue disc upper left, lower right wing, "U.S. ARMY" in black under the wings. If you want to get really fancy, there's a reflector gunsight in the cockpit.

 

Neat photo, Jim! BTW, your F2A In Action is "the" Buffalo reference! I'm guessing the two greens would be FS34079 dark green and FS 34102 medium green?

Mike

[jimmaas]

Yes, as in "FS 595 wasn't around then but Dutch vets say those colors are close to the Dutch aircraft colors in the NEI".  Actually, the In Action book I did is getting rather long in the tooth and there are some errors (like, the F2A-3 didn't have the ventral window, though the 339-23 did).  You might want to grab the new book by Rich Dann in the Ginter series, much good stuff in there.

[LDSModeller]

8 hours ago, 72modeler said:

 

 

 the 'G' series engines were civil versions, many of which were remanufactured DC-3 engines;

 

 

B339E/F2A-2

OAL 25' 7"; R-1820G-105 with a 10' 1" HS uncuffed prop with a large spinner; armored glass behind windscreen; canopy had a large oval-shaped moveable panel in the 1st pane  on the port side only; Mk III reflector sight; 2 .50 cal fuselage and 2 .50 cal wing guns; large, fixed tail wheel; straight pitot; additional landing light added under stbd. wing; blunt tailcone; all position lights removed; belly windows same as B339B

 

Hope this will be useful to you and the rest of the BM'ers.

Mike

Hi Mike,

 

Bear in mind only a portion, not all 170 odd RAF 339E's had the reconditioned/re-manufactured engines

 

The 339E Buffalo had the pointed tail cone (per my post above) not blunt see attached photo link

 

RAF 339# Tail cone

 

Not sure what you mean by "All Position Lights Removed" - the upper position lights on the wings were removed, but all others remained

see the tail cone in the above link, and  annotated photo showing dorsal lights in this link

 

Buffalo Dorsal light

 

Per my post above, other distinguishing features on only RAF 339E

Starboard Cine Camera Gun (B) just past wing gun, and additional landing light (A) - -note delivery with fixed site/post also

 

 

Square backed seat, not rounded, and seat frames connects to roll bar, NOT rear bulkhead as F2A-2 - round object at shoulder of

John "Hutch" Hutchinson is the undercart warning horn. Note also Sutton Harness

(RNZAF Official - used for illustration purposes only)

 

RAF 339E had heating tubes for wing guns, note the tubes in my build (brown tubes) note also seat frames and O2 bottle basket

per my post above, and different position of fire extinguisher as opposed to F2A-2

 

FYI for modellers

One thing I have yet to see on any Buffalo build (in larger scale 1/48-1/32) is the forward gun spent shell chute and

exit at lower section of Port wing as in these photos

 

Regards

 

Alan

[cocky05d]

9 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

 

IIRC the silver plastic Tamiya kit  is a specific pre war USN boxing.    Ask in the wanted section if someone has spare decals.

 

the "F"  means fighter.   All the letters mean something

F2A-2

F=fighter

2 = model

A= Brewster

-2 = block number, or variant

 

this is why with Corsairs a F4U-1 is a Vought built plane,  (U=Vought)  while a FG-1 is Goodyear  and a F3A-1 is Brewster built.

 

 

see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1922_United_States_Navy_aircraft_designation_system

 

for a fuller explanation and more codes

 

HTH

T

 

 

I got the kit from the Sunderland air museum ,secondhand and the decals were no good ,also the canopy was scratched .

There is a kit for sale on ebay ,thinking of getting it .But there is the problem what to do with the model kit ,i would have 6 Buffalo's ,madness beckons .

[LDSModeller]

1 hour ago, cocky05d said:

I got the kit from the Sunderland air museum ,secondhand and the decals were no good ,also the canopy was scratched .

There is a kit for sale on ebay ,thinking of getting it .But there is the problem what to do with the model kit ,i would have 6 Buffalo's ,madness beckons .

You could build one of these with the kit from the Museum (photo is colourised just as an FYI)

 

 

Regards

 

Alan

[neilh]

3 hours ago, cocky05d said:

I got the kit from the Sunderland air museum ,secondhand and the decals were no good ,also the canopy was scratched .

There is a kit for sale on ebay ,thinking of getting it .But there is the problem what to do with the model kit ,i would have 6 Buffalo's ,madness beckons .

I have trashed at last one of these kits. PM me your address. If I can find the canopies they are yours. I also think I have decals from the USN pre war boxing . Not sure how good they are but if they look useable you can have them too.  Will be away this weekend but if you can wait a couple of days....

[Troy Smith]

8 hours ago, cocky05d said:

I got the kit from the Sunderland air museum ,secondhand and the decals were no good ,also the canopy was scratched .

 

If Neil can't  find his spares,  IIRC some boxings (the one with RAF, Dutch and USN)  have two sets of canopies, for specific versions,  so check your kits.

 

Squadron also do a vacform replacement.