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Beardie

More Pet Hates grumble grumble grumble

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@Chillidragon Unfortunately Mike just, and only just, beat me in replying on the previous thread. It locked down just as I pressed Submit.

 

You mention Erse, is that the correct linguistic term for Irish Gaelic? My wife is of Donegal stock and objects to it being referred to as anything but Gaelic (Pronounced as Gay Lick) in Scotland the name of the native language is pronounced Gaaahhhlic. I Scotland in the past Erse was often used as a derogatory term by lowland Scots and English for Highlanders. It helps that to a lowland Scot it sounds like the part of your body you sit on.

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You couldn't just... stay happy?  Y'know... not let everything get to you? :shrug:

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Erse must be the exonym used by linguists, then, to avoid confusion - though, of course, 'Scots Gaelic' and 'Irish Gaelic' are also terms I've seen in print.

 

Everyone's got them;

Basque = Euskara

Welsh = Cymraeg

Hebrew = Ivrith...

 

Often just a different pronunciation, other times not.  'Welsh', for example is Anglo Saxon for 'foreign'.

So I'll not use 'Erse' again.

 

I hear you on changes, though; Cymraeg has similar problems, though we may well not be staring extinction in the face anymore.  And I pray that Gaelic flourishes likewise, along with the rest of our family.

Edited by Chillidragon

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@Mike it is Cathartic, let it all out and all that :laugh:

 

@Chillidragon  It is a pity that the changes to the Celtic language are not the result of natural evolution but rather adopting idioms from the dominant English language. I find it quite strange at times how recent the language has suffered it's decline. I have read a number of accounts that indicate that the Gaelic was the only language in some rural areas until the outbreak of the first and second world wars where those who went into the armed forces had to learn English and brought it home with them. In one account by a Scots islander captured when the Highland Division was forced to surrender at Saint Valery he notes that, when they arrived in Germany their captors made a point of separating Gaelic speakers from non Gaelic speakers. Not sure what the purpose was for the Germans but the language proved useful in escape attempts where the escapees were assumed to be migrant workers from some occupied country.

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It seems the Germans had some regard for and curiosity about us; some of the best books on Celtic History were in German.  I was taught Celtic Religion by an able linguist whose lecture notes were prepared from such a textbook, and questions answered with quotes translated on the fly. Could also be that they were hoping to divide and conquer.

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I do think that being Celts may have been on their minds as you say as that ties into their own theories of the time. There is still a great deal of interest in Celtic studies and Gaelic among the German, Swiss and Austrian nations when I think about it. From the account they certainly didn't seem to receive any kind of special treatment in the camps or during their forced labour. I used to come across many from the Teutonic areas when I frequented Gaelic forums and, indeed, one of the newsreaders for BBC Alba was a German fellow called Andreas Wolff who is originally from Berlin but now lives in Oban. I did find it somewhat galling at times being corrected on my Gaelic grammar by a Swiss or Austrian though :laugh: They were basing everything on the solid foundations of published grammar rather than the colloquial grammar in general use in Scotland.

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Not trying to upset Mike,:tomato:, because he is a :star:!

 

Carrying on from the previous thread and speaking as a Archaeologist, Palaeontologist and Geologist, (hence I have as an Archaeologist excavated dinosaur remains and for roundness been involved in  archaeological excavations whilst wearing my Palaeontologist's 'hat'), I failed school (8 'O' levels at grade D, expected to attain A's and B's), because I found school BORING and UTTERLY UNSTIMULATING, not to mention that by the time I arrived it had plummeted from being one of the best schools in the district to one of the worst. At VI Form College I recovered part way  - Why? -  because it was interesting and stimulating. Now, I have a very good bachelor's, degree followed by a Master's, PhL and PhD, amongst others, plus I enjoy languages now, including Gaelic, (family from Skye...), Latin and Greek, because I followed my interests as and when I could whilst working until the opportunity presented itself to go on to higher education. No employment-avoidance, following my friends, lack of an idea of what to do, peer-pressure, social pressure, etc. My decision, my path, nobody elses.

 

As for being exiled to africa, that is nothing to do with education, work or choice; its by marriage!

 

Christian, exiled to africa

 

 

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5 hours ago, wyverns4 said:

 

As for being exiled to africa, that is nothing to do with education, work or choice; its by marriage!

I'm not brave enough to comment on that in case the AOC Home Command armed with a fossil thigh bone,ever visits Scotland

5 hours ago, wyverns4 said:

I failed school

So did I. Mainly due to the windows overlooking the approach to runway 23 at HMS Fulmar.

Ended up at nightschool to get the tickets I failed,joined the police and never used any of them!

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14 hours ago, Chillidragon said:

Erse must be the exonym used by linguists, then, to avoid confusion - though, of course, 'Scots Gaelic' and 'Irish Gaelic' are also terms I've seen in print.

 

Everyone's got them;

Basque = Euskara

Welsh = Cymraeg

Hebrew = Ivrith...

 

Often just a different pronunciation, other times not.  'Welsh', for example is Anglo Saxon for 'foreign'.

So I'll not use 'Erse' again.

 

I hear you on changes, though; Cymraeg has similar problems, though we may well not be staring extinction in the face anymore.  And I pray that Gaelic flourishes likewise, along with the rest of our family.

Over here the original language is Guernesias (Guernsey Patois) which is based on Norman French,only a handfull of locals speak it now but if you're lucky you might find two people having a conversation in it...They are trying to teach it in schools but whether it'll work is anyones guess...

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Erse? Eh? Vaguely heard of it. I'd say it's an archaic term these days. Actually it's a pity I didn't see this earlier as my sister in law had dropped by and she's head of the Irish language section of the uni. She'd know. 

In any case we simply say Irish or Gaeilge. My sons go to a Gael Scoil  Where they learn entirely through Irish and are both fluent. Not that they ever speak it at home. 

Which speaks to the fate of Gaelic languages in general. English is more convenient and that has been true for a long time. 

Ironically Galway, where I live according to the census close to 20% of the population foreign born. More people speak Polish than Irish. Plus of course they all speak English daily.

It's a losing battle.

 

 

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1 hour ago, noelh said:

It's a losing battle

Take heart and be grateful they actually speak a language. Most of the kids round here just seem to grunt at each other in a way that would have made Dian Fossey proud.

 

My latest pet hate is once again noise related. Blooming foxes down the end of the garden!

Oi Foxes! My garden ain’t a knocking shop. Sod off and have noisy nookie elsewhere.

 

Mart

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Around and about Skye (highland region and outer isles in general). I can tell you the edumacatificon system is very focused on teaching promoting and maintaining scots Gaelic (ga-lic) and while as mentioned English is the primary out front day to day there are a surprising number of youngsters actively using it.

A nice example I've seen a couple of times is when a young medical staff member has been able to speak to an elderly patient who has lapsed back into Gaelic (as can happen with the folks to whom it was a native language before English was learned, typically at school).

So it's a long way from being forgotten.

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9 hours ago, wyverns4 said:

As for being exiled to africa, that is nothing to do with education, work or choice; its by marriage!

.....and the Boss let's you say it that way?!!! :whistle::rofl2:

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Even in my land of exile I sometimes get to use the Old Language at work.*  But my daughter, who was fluent, is losing it.

 

*And no, I don't mean by venting my exasperation in it.  Which I also do.  Often, as it happens.

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1 hour ago, PhoenixII said:

.....and the Boss let's you say it that way?!!! :whistle::rofl2:

Wot she don't know...

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Gaelic speakers made it hard for the German stooges to eavesdrop on any conversations.

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Adverts,has anyone seen the Haven Holidays ad with the two girls on trikes,it reminds me of The Shining with the two girls at the end of the corridor and who on earth'd want to stay there!...

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You want to mention TV adverts?  I swear if I hear that dopey old bloke say "seemed the right thing to do . . ." while nodding wisely I'll put something through the screen.  It's life assurance, you plank, you stop paying in (make a choice between heat or eat, as the horror stories go) and all that dosh disappears like fairy dust.

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Strange things adverts.

The ones you detest are always the ones you remember!

Still,I can't think of a product I've bought as a result of a TV advert. Just as well that Airfix et al don't do them.

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Folks who use Arabic numbers when they should be Roman numerals - Spitfire 11 should be Spitfire II or Spitfire XI (if there was one) :jump_fire:

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4 minutes ago, Ratch said:

Folks who use Arabic numbers when they should be Roman numerals - Spitfire 11 should be Spitfire II or Spitfire XI (if there was one) :jump_fire:

I agree. 'World War 11' is one that always chills my bones.

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@Beardie

 

Re the European thing about Celts. I believe we are descended from The Beaker People who were traced to an area in modern day Hungary.

 

We then moved west to uninhabited land and (this is my gripe) were shoved to the western Atlantic tip of Europe, Scotland Ireland, Wales, Cornwall and Brittany by everyone else.

 

Trevor

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1 hour ago, Ratch said:

Folks who use Arabic numbers when they should be Roman numerals - Spitfire 11 should be Spitfire II or Spitfire XI (if there was one) :jump_fire:

Spitfire XI, Merlin-engined photo-reconnaissance version based on Mk. IX.

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1 hour ago, Max Headroom said:

@Beardie

 

Re the European thing about Celts. I believe we are descended from The Beaker People who were traced to an area in modern day Hungary.

 

We then moved west to uninhabited land and (this is my gripe) were shoved to the western Atlantic tip of Europe, Scotland Ireland, Wales, Cornwall and Brittany by everyone else.

 

Trevor

Actually, we may not even be the first Indo Europeans in Europe.  The situation is complicated by:

1. Lack of writing

2. Lack of pre-Celtic languages to compare, apart from Basque.  I'll return to that.

3. Archaeology shows that we Celts weren't here first.  The land was inhabited by people who were certainly pre-Celtic, quite likely pre-Indo European.  Heard of the Bronze Age Collapse?  In Ireland, at least, that was us. 

 

The Bell Beaker People are now not thought to represent a single group, and - apart from burial customs (hence the name; they buried their dead with a 'pint') were materially very similar to the Battle Axe People (who buried their dead with an axe).  Thus, whilst the BBs may have been an ethnic group, they could equally have been a religion.  And it is often conjectured that they may have spoken either an Indo European language or a member of a sister family (some linguists - not many - consider Hittite one such; its vocabulary is undoubtedly IE, its grammar quite distinct.  Also see Burushaski).)

 

Now Basque: I did some empirical research on this by the comparative method and came to a screeching halt.  I was inspired by the fact that Basques count in twenties, and their word is 'hogei'.  Ours (Cymraeg) is 'ugain'.  So I considered Cornish words which were likely brought by refugees from sunken Spanish Armada ships (believe it or not; an acquaintance called Pascoe traced his family that far back) thus: Cornish 'pisky' - a fairy - from 'piska', meaning little.  'Oggi' - pasty - from 'ogia', bread.

 

Then I found 'mendi', mountain. Close to (Cymraeg again) 'Mynydd' or Latin 'mons' (closer in the oblique cases: 'mentis').  Then 'pixa' (pronounced /pisha/) and 'kaka'; wait, what?  These mean what they sound like, so I gave up.  Why would a language borrow terms for urine and faeces?  Maybe they had a taboo (doubt it) or thought the new, Celtic words funny, but mountain? "We've lived up here on these all our lives, yes, but we have no word for them..."  I didn't think at the time that Basque and IE could be related, and decided that the evidence was too compromised to proceed further.  A look at reconstructed Proto-Basque still convinces me that this is so.  I could find no noteable correspondences.

 

A fairly recent paper suggests that all the verbs in Basque can be taken back to Indo European roots, but I haven't seen it yet, and anyway the grammar is again quite different.  It is still generally agreed to be both non- and pre-Indo European.

 

Celts are generally believed to have become distinct from other IE peoples in Europe as the Urnfield People (late Bronze Age) in Central Europe, then we undoubtedly were the Hallstatt People, then we split between Continental Celts (Gauls of various flavours, plus Celtiberians) and Insular Celts - Goidels and Brythons.  The Goidels went to Ireland (possibly from Iberia) then to Scotland (displacing/absorbing the Picts, possibly the Caledonii) whilst the Brythons split into North British (Strathclyde Welsh and Welsh) and South British (Cornish).  The Isle of Man was colonised by Brythons, Goidels, Norsemen... But Manx is Goidelic.  Armorica became Brittany (little Britain) after it was swamped with refugees from the Anglo Saxon invasion, and the language is closest to Cornish.  Of its four dialects one has features which appear to be Gaulish.

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