ArtickWarspite Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 Hi everyone, I'm currently building a couple of Airfix 1/48th scale Mk1 Hurricanes from the Battle of Britain. (249 squadron to be exact. GN-H and GN-L) From the research I have done, it would appear that these 249 squadron Hurricanes had very large squadron codes on the fuselage. I've been looking around for aftermarket RAF decals from that period, and the largest ones I can find are 30 inch letters painted in the "sky" colour. I think I need the grey letters in a 36 inch size possibly larger. The reference photos suggest the letters were tall enough to touch the wing root and almost touch the canopy. Can anyone help point me in the right direction please? This is proving to be a harder project that anticipated... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seawinder Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 Hi AW. One avenue you might explore is to have custom masks made. The one I'm aware of is Mal's Miracle Masks. I believe he's located somewhere in Cornwall. He does very nice work. I believe he can do the artwork design, or you can produce it yourself and have him cut the masks. At his web page, http://www.freewebs.com/miraclemasks/ He furnishes an email address for inquiries: [email protected] 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Work In Progress Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 (edited) Have you considered the 1/32 30" grey codes from Xtradecal? https://www.hannants.co.uk/product/X32024 By the magic of arithmetic, when you apply them to a 1/48 model they are 36" codes. Edited January 15, 2018 by Work In Progress 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbob Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 (edited) I think you need to check your math! Still, on a right track, perhaps- you need letters that are 3/4" tall; 24" 1/32 letters would match, if there is such a thing. Of course, then you have to hope that the shapes are about right... Edit: https://www.hannants.co.uk/product/X32046 Edited January 15, 2018 by gingerbob 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Work In Progress Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 Er, yes. Silly of me. It's the 1/32 24" ones he needs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 5 hours ago, gingerbob said: I think you need to check your math! Still, on a right track, perhaps- you need letters that are 3/4" tall; 24" 1/32 letters would match, if there is such a thing. Of course, then you have to hope that the shapes are about right... Edit: https://www.hannants.co.uk/product/X32046 well, as it happens, the 249 codes are pretty chunky... 24 inch at 1/32 , ok, 1/32nd is 3/8th inch too foot, so 24 inch is 6/8th's, or 3/4 inch, 3/4 inch in 1/48th is 3ft, or 36 inch. the roundel above is 35 inch, and each band of the roundel is 5 inch, and the serial is 8 inch high, which gives size reference points. the codes letter should have a 6 inch stroke width, and the 'C' looks to be a little wider then the yellow ring, so 6 inch look right. I'd suggest rescaling the decal image to actual size, and then doing a print out and cutting out the letters to see how the look on the actual fuselage, this would also allow you to check the width of the letter stroke. good lateral thinking by @gingerbob I'd not thought of checking the 32nd scale codes... Articks original query and my response is here BTW http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235027581-airfix-148-hurricane/&do=findComment&comment=2915787 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbob Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 Troy, don't credit me, I was just following up 'Work in Progress'. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtickWarspite Posted January 15, 2018 Author Share Posted January 15, 2018 5 hours ago, Troy Smith said: well, as it happens, the 249 codes are pretty chunky... 24 inch at 1/32 , ok, 1/32nd is 3/8th inch too foot, so 24 inch is 6/8th's, or 3/4 inch, 3/4 inch in 1/48th is 3ft, or 36 inch. the roundel above is 35 inch, and each band of the roundel is 5 inch, and the serial is 8 inch high, which gives size reference points. the codes letter should have a 6 inch stroke width, and the 'C' looks to be a little wider then the yellow ring, so 6 inch look right. I'd suggest rescaling the decal image to actual size, and then doing a print out and cutting out the letters to see how the look on the actual fuselage, this would also allow you to check the width of the letter stroke. good lateral thinking by @gingerbob I'd not thought of checking the 32nd scale codes... Articks original query and my response is here BTW http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235027581-airfix-148-hurricane/&do=findComment&comment=2915787 Great, thank you for all of your help everyone. You've been a great help. I'll print off a test of this decal sheet with the letters at 3/4 an inch high- which in my language is 19.05 millimetres and will do a test fit. If it fits then I'll go ahead and order the decals. Thanks again, it's greatly appreciated! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seawinder Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 Hi ArtickW. To my eye the stroke width of the letters on the decal sheet Troy posted are significantly narrower than that of the numbers in the photograph. I still think custom masks are a better way to get a more accurate representation. If you decide to go that route and need help with the vector drawing artwork, let me know. pnmoss [at] comcast [dot] net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtickWarspite Posted January 16, 2018 Author Share Posted January 16, 2018 2 hours ago, Seawinder said: Hi ArtickW. To my eye the stroke width of the letters on the decal sheet Troy posted are significantly narrower than that of the numbers in the photograph. I still think custom masks are a better way to get a more accurate representation. If you decide to go that route and need help with the vector drawing artwork, let me know. pnmoss [at] comcast [dot] net Thanks, I'll keep that in mind. I've printed out a couple of letters at the specified size and will test fit them and see how they go. If they're slightly thinner then I won't mind very much, but if it is significant, then I'll be in touch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtickWarspite Posted January 16, 2018 Author Share Posted January 16, 2018 On 1/16/2018 at 3:25 AM, Troy Smith said: I'd suggest rescaling the decal image to actual size, and then doing a print out and cutting out the letters to see how the look on the actual fuselage, this would also allow you to check the width of the letter stroke. Tried this last night, and yes, they look so much better than the 30 inch ones. This is a much better fit. The height is perfect. The top of the GN codes fit just below the slid back canopy hood and the bottom just touches the wing root join. The width looks good too, so I'll go ahead and order these X32046 decals. Thanks for your help everyone, it's greatly appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seawinder Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 The great photo Troy posted above has provided me with a perfect subject for my future build of the Airfix Mk. I, and one of my modeling friends has recently acquired a plotter/cutter, so I'm going to try my hand at making custom masks for the codes. Are there other photos of 249 Sqn. planes that show what style of fin flash they wore? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 10 hours ago, Seawinder said: Are there other photos of 249 Sqn. planes that show what style of fin flash they wore? Possibly the same GN-C, it's a pretty grotty image, but I'd suggest the front edge of fin red and white/blue stripe, but could just be 3 stripes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seawinder Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 Troy, thanks for the photo and the link to the other thread, which has a lot of good stuff in it. From a quick perusal, plus what you said in your last post, it looks as though I won't be too far off if I go with the fin flash with the red filling the whole space to the front edge of the fin, and with GN-C on the starboard side. One other question if I may (although the answer may be found with a more careful reading of the other thread): Would P3870 have been in service during the time that lower surface roundels were removed, or is it more likely that they were there at the time the portside photo was taken? Many thanks, Pip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 1 hour ago, Seawinder said: although the answer may be found with a more careful reading of the other thread): Would P3870 have been in service during the time that lower surface roundels were removed, IIRC, 249 got ex 56 Sq Hurricane in late august 1940, underwing roundels were reintroduced 1st August, see top right one suggestion for the smaller roundels was unit level application, and it was easier to do at the tips,IIRC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seawinder Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 Great, thanks again. Are you in agreement about the fin flash and starboard codes placement? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 6 hours ago, Seawinder said: Are you in agreement about the fin flash and starboard codes placement? Hi Pip For GN-C P3870 I'd go for the red fin front, the code order was debated in one of the links, here with the starboard side reading A-GN. Mention is made of a photo of Tom Neil, which I have not seen this is linked, in the above but to save it geting lost https://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?90512-F-Lt-James-Nicolson-VC There is an earlier Hurricane with GN behind the roundel on the starboard side. So... I don't know. For certainty of a a BoB Hurricane scheme, I can think of with multiple images of both sides are 85 Sq VY-R in July 1940, with a frontal shot and one in flight, VY-Q with the white spinner again July 1940, and 87 Sq Gleed's LK-A. Maybe one of the 32 Sq planes is also as well documented, from the famous film unit stills, and maybe some of the film of 56 Sq on Pathe, as there is footage of take off and landing. There are shots of different planes from the same squadron at the same time, but both sides of the same plane is a rarity HTH T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seawinder Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 Hmm, quoting from your words posted to the linked thread in your last post, "From the one photo of the starboard side of a 249 Sq Hurricane in July 1940, the codes read GN-H." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 10 hours ago, Seawinder said: Hmm, quoting from your words posted to the linked thread in your last post, "From the one photo of the starboard side of a 249 Sq Hurricane in July 1940, the codes read GN-H." Hi Pip yes, there is a photo of GN- ? on a low loader, with the code letters behnd the roundel on the starboard side, in a photo dated July 1940, there is then evidence mentioned that a September 1940 photo of Tom Neil (and others later on) of the code letters in front of the roundel. These I have not seen. So.... arguments in for either are possible, but this is as much as I know now. P3870 in the Mason Hurricane book is listed as going to 56 Sq in June 1940, no mention of being with 249 Sq. From the 3rd Hawker built batch. cheers T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithy Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 The photo of GN-C with the pilot is George Barclay and this aircraft (P3870) was his regular mount during August and September. Humphrey Wynn as editor in Barclay's diaries (1994 edition) states that the photo was taken at Church Fenton so this would be late August. At this stage 249 carried the GN squadron code forward of the roundel on the starboard side as can be evidenced in photos from August and September, eg there are 3 photographs in Neil's "A Fighter in My Sights" (2001) showing this. HTH, Tim 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbob Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 Troy's comment made me search, and I found a photo of Neil bent over (strapping up parachute?) with the GN forward. (I searched "Tom Neil 249" and had to scroll a bit before I spotted it). bob 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seawinder Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 Wow, you guys are great! Thanks so much for the time and effort. I'll do C-GN on the starboard side. Cheers, Pip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 3 hours ago, gingerbob said: Troy's comment made me search, and I found a photo of Neil bent over (strapping up parachute?) with the GN forward. (I searched "Tom Neil 249" and had to scroll a bit before I spotted it). bob cheers bob pinterest strikes again is that a DH prop? and.... from http://www.bbm.org.uk/airmen/Palliser.htm Quote George Charles Calder Palliser was born in West Hartlepool on 11th January 1919 and educated at Brougham School there and later a Technical School. He joined the RAFVR in June 1939 as an Airman u/t Pilot and did some flying at 32 E&RFTS before being called to full-time service at the outbreak of war. Palliser was posted to 3 ITW Hastings, moved to 11 EFTS Perth on 5th December and went to 6 FTS, Little Rissington in April 1940. After converting to Hurricanes at 6 OTU Sutton Bridge in July, Palliser joined 17 Squadron at Debden on 3rd August. He moved to 43 Squadron at Tangmere on the 18th and joined 249 Squadron at North Weald on 14th September. note splodge under canopy of GN-C..... Just an observation.... oh for more photos! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbob Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 (edited) 14 hours ago, Troy Smith said: is that a DH prop? The roots look more Rotol to me. (yep, that was the shot- edit: and for clarity, I am referring here to the Tom Neil photo.) Edited January 20, 2018 by gingerbob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seawinder Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 Yes, I'm a bit confused about the propellers, at least the one on GN-C (P3870). In the clear port-side photo above (which incidentally doesn't have the splodge), the blades look to be Rotol (sharp indentation toward the hub), but the spinner isn't visible. In the fuzzy in-flight photo, the spinner appears more pointy: would that suggest a DH prop, or is it the later Rotol spinner, or have I got it all wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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