Wez Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 (edited) Thinking about the proposed Small Wars GB and I was musing over the possibility of making a French Skyraider, the thing is all 1/72nd scale kits for the single seat versions are for A-1H/J models which feature the additional armour on the underside. The French aircraft were AD-4/AD-4N models which didn't have the armour fitted in US service but did they have it fitted in French service? Given the role they were doing it would seem logical they would want the armour. I know I'll need to make the earlier rounded main pylons rather than the angular ones fitted to A-1H/J models, I've got a couple of surplus Bearcat drop tanks to use and I'm sure I can source some other stores from elsewhere and I have the kit and decals so I'm all ready to go. The question is, do I keep the armour, struggle to take it off and restore the surface finish or as it's on the underside and most people won't see it, give it a good ignoring? Edited January 8, 2018 by Wez Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giorgio N Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 Well, you may be lucky here... I've looked into the French Skyraiders myself in the past as it's a subject I find very interesting and for this reason I bought this book, that I highly recommend: http://www.aviationbookcentre.com/military__jet_era/airfan_hors_serie_les_skyraider_dans_larmee_de_lair/6399_p.html (I have no affiliation with this shop, it's just one place where I saw the book for sale, it's long OOP so if you're interested you may have to search around) The book is all in French language, I can read a bit of French and among the various info I read that armour was added for the pilot.... this made me curious and browsing the book I noticed how actually all pictures seemed to show the presence of armour around the cockpit ! Enter Tailspin Turtle's (member here) great blog and this article: http://tailspintopics.blogspot.it/2013/07/ad-armor-all.html Checking again the pictures on the book against this info I found that all French AD-4s had the external step, meaning they had the armour on the cockpit sides. Unfortunately it's very hard to see if they have armour under the fuselage, as there are only few pictures that clearly show this area, however judging from a couple of picture I'd say that IMHO the armour is there on the bottom too. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted January 8, 2018 Author Share Posted January 8, 2018 Giorgio, thanks for your swift and very helpful response. Off to do some more investigation now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giorgio N Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 (edited) Wez If you haven't seen them yet, these galleries are quite interesting. First some French aircrafts http://www.frenchwings.net/algeria/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=7 Then some pictures taken by a French pilot serving in Gabon on former French Skyraiders http://skyraider.org/skyassn/otherpics/borne/borne.htm To me all the pictures showing the area around the cockpit seem to indicate the presence of the armour. Interestingly, F-AZHK, the skyraider flying today in French colour (itself a former AdA machine) does not show the armour, guess this was removed at some point. See this picture for example for comparison with the bog post and the pictures of the operational French aircrafts https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Douglas_AD4-NA_Skyraider_127002_20-LN_(F-AZHK)_(7000093184).jpg Looking forward to know more myself, clearly not having to remove the armour means way less work in converting an AD-6 into a French machine Edited January 9, 2018 by Giorgio N Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RidgeRunner Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 (edited) Hi Wez! I cant lay my hands on an image now but the best book by far is the French-language “les Skyraiders Francais”. It is pricey, though. My understaning is that the French Skyraiders did not have armour. When I built mine, though, it was too much phaff to remove it. Martin Edited January 9, 2018 by RidgeRunner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giorgio N Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 Martin that was my understanding too, guess that I had given for granted the notion that armour was introduced on the AD-6 so automatically assumed that the AD-4 didn't use it. However after reading the Airfan special and checking as many pictures as possible I'm now leaning towards the idea that they had armour. The story of armour on Skyraiders seem to be less simple than we thought Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted January 9, 2018 Author Share Posted January 9, 2018 Giorgio, many thanks for those links, I'd already bookmarked one of them but it doesn't hurt to have plenty more references. Martin, thanks for making me aware of Les Skyraiders Francais, Amazon have one for sale at a mere £398.95! I'm off to look for some spare change down the back of the sofa! I know the AD-4 didn't originally have armour, that modification coming later in the Skyraider's life, but once developed, there's no reason why it couldn't be retro-fitted to earlier aircraft. I guess I'm going to have to pore over more photos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RidgeRunner Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 (edited) 8 hours ago, Giorgio N said: Martin that was my understanding too, guess that I had given for granted the notion that armour was introduced on the AD-6 so automatically assumed that the AD-4 didn't use it. However after reading the Airfan special and checking as many pictures as possible I'm now leaning towards the idea that they had armour. The story of armour on Skyraiders seem to be less simple than we thought Hi Giorgio! The other dilemma when building a French AD-4 is the variety of aerial and antenna arrangements. For example, a few had a long pitot-like tube protruding from the front and top of the fin, USN style. Many didn't have that. Then there was a range of cable antenna arrangements. The best to do is get an image of what you want to model and go only for that set up. I still don't think they had armour. Martin PS: I corresponded with Jacques Borne's son when I was building my Gabonese Skyraider. He was very generous with images to help me. Edited January 9, 2018 by RidgeRunner 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RidgeRunner Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 4 hours ago, Wez said: Giorgio, many thanks for those links, I'd already bookmarked one of them but it doesn't hurt to have plenty more references. Martin, thanks for making me aware of Les Skyraiders Francais, Amazon have one for sale at a mere £398.95! I'm off to look for some spare change down the back of the sofa! I know the AD-4 didn't originally have armour, that modification coming later in the Skyraider's life, but once developed, there's no reason why it couldn't be retro-fitted to earlier aircraft. I guess I'm going to have to pore over more photos. Hi Wez! That one is printed on gold leaf I reckon ;). It is normally around 45-50 euros. As I said, it is priced but it's a great book. Good of luck with the AD-4. One of my favourites. :). I just checked my book and certainly they had armour around the cockpit. Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RidgeRunner Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 Hi again Wez, this is was my attempt at a French Skyraider. Martin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted January 10, 2018 Author Share Posted January 10, 2018 7 hours ago, RidgeRunner said: Hi Wez! That one is printed on gold leaf I reckon ;). It is normally around 45-50 euros. As I said, it is priced but it's a great book. Good of luck with the AD-4. One of my favourites. :). I just checked my book and certainly they had armour around the cockpit. Martin Fortunately Antoine has put me onto a source that comes in at less than a tenth of the price it is on Amazon! 7 hours ago, RidgeRunner said: Hi again Wez, this is was my attempt at a French Skyraider. Martin Nice Skyraider Martin, I hope mine looks as good when the time comes, I've got the Hasegawa and the Hobbycraft kits to choose from. Regarding the main underwing pylons, I notice you modified the kit's to the earlier shape, are the later ones the same width as the earlier ones? It's always something I've wondered about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RidgeRunner Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 (edited) Thanks. Go with the Hasegawa. Although the Hobbycraft has the correct fuselage, doesnt it? for the pylons i simply used the kit items reshaped according to a 1/72 drawing. No change in thickness. Does that help? The tanks are from a F4U and the centreline is from a F-84G tip tank. I sanded smooth and added the seams with Plastruct rod. Martin Edited January 10, 2018 by RidgeRunner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RidgeRunner Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 (edited) Wez, if the book doesn’t work out I got mine from Avions-bateaux Martin Edited January 10, 2018 by RidgeRunner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulT 876 Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 Hi Wez Try these Books Lela Presse Les Skyraiders Francais (Douglas A-1 Skyraider in French Air Force Service) ISBN: 9782914017657 This is a good book its one of the above Also ALLIED WINGS Douglas Skyraider In French Service The Paperback Michel Fournier ISBN-10: 2953254498 ISBN-13: 978-2953254495 Hope this helps Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giorgio N Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 Nice looking model Martin ! Yes, antenna fit seems to have varied, don't know if this depended on the version of the aircraft or changed over time or what, I may have to read my book in more depth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted January 10, 2018 Author Share Posted January 10, 2018 4 hours ago, PaulT 876 said: Hope this helps Paul Paul, thanks. 8 hours ago, RidgeRunner said: Thanks. Go with the Hasegawa. Although the Hobbycraft has the correct fuselage, doesnt it? for the pylons i simply used the kit items reshaped according to a 1/72 drawing. No change in thickness. Does that help? The tanks are from a F4U and the centreline is from a F-84G tip tank. I sanded smooth and added the seams with Plastruct rod. Martin Very helpful thanks. 4 hours ago, Giorgio N said: Nice looking model Martin ! Yes, antenna fit seems to have varied, don't know if this depended on the version of the aircraft or changed over time or what, I may have to read my book in more depth I wouldn't be surprised if the radio fits were changed to suit the circumstances, it just means I'll have to make sure I'm looking at photos of the aircraft I'm modelling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted January 10, 2018 Author Share Posted January 10, 2018 6 hours ago, PaulT 876 said: Les Skyraiders Francais Well, I've just ordered this from Lela-Presse/Avions-Bateaux, just need to sit back and wait for it to arrive! I must say they have some interesting books that I wouldn't mind, I'd just have to divert some of the kit budget to a book budget! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RidgeRunner Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 Excellent, Wez. You won't regret it. I agree, they have some very interesting and attractive books on that site. Good luck with the build! Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted January 11, 2018 Author Share Posted January 11, 2018 10 hours ago, RidgeRunner said: Excellent, Wez. You won't regret it. I agree, they have some very interesting and attractive books on that site. Good luck with the build! Martin Thanks, unfortunately the build won't be for some time, no time free right now due to studying for a BEng but hopefully in the foreseeable future! In the meantime I can dip in and out of the book to find out what I need to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RidgeRunner Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 There is a lot to “read” ( okay if you can tead French). The photos and images are excellent, though. Good luck with all. i have a similar delay situation with four in part build - Invader, F-47, MIG-21UM and MIG-15UTI..... too much work and my work pattern has changed :(. all my best, Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RidgeRunner Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 hi Wez, Did you like the book? Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted February 10, 2018 Author Share Posted February 10, 2018 18 minutes ago, RidgeRunner said: hi Wez, Did you like the book? Martin Hi Martin, I too busy with studying at the moment to do anything more than skim through it but what I've seen I like. Lots and I mean lots of very useful pictures! My intention is to take it on holiday with me in the summer, do some translation and make some notes - I can't wait for the summer. Definitely a good recommendation though, thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RidgeRunner Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 Excellent :). I'm glad it worked out. Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antoine Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 Hi Wez, you know I've the book, what about ringing my bell when you need such informations? Still, do not hesitate to do so if you feel I can help with translation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antoine Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 On 11/01/2018 at 10:32 AM, RidgeRunner said: i have a similar delay situation with four in part build - Invader, F-47, MIG-21UM and MIG-15UTI..... Obviously, you need some Hagedorn's books. 13 minutes ago, Wez said: My intention is to take it on holiday with me in the summer, do some translation and make some notes - I can't wait for the summer. You mean you'll try to invade France once again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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