Beaufighter picture - Mark/unit/date?

[ClaudioN]

Googling around, I came across a Beaufighter picture in BAE Systems heritage web page:

https://www.baesystems.com/en/heritage/bristol-156-beaufighter

Picture 1 in the gallery shows Beaufighter 'X' with:

• underwing rockets
• dihedral tailplanes
• no fin fillet
• D/F loop blister on the fuselage top
• nose-mounted camera
• cut-away rear blister with a machine gun

This might look like a rocket-armed Mk.VIC or, possibly, a Mk.XI and, by the look of it, I'd think 1943 or early 1944 as a possible date. The aircraft, though, has 'C type' roundels above the wings, that would rather suggest 1945, although lack of unit codes seems unusual for that time.

 

Any ideas? Just out of curiosity (and having a Beau in the stash).

 

Claudio

 

 

[Graham Boak]

Given the 1945 roundel, the earlier camouflage, and the lack of unit codes, plus the non-standard camera on the nose, I suggest that this is a trials aircraft rather than a squadron one.

[Charlie Hugo]

1 hour ago, ClaudioN said:

Googling around, I came across a Beaufighter picture in BAE Systems heritage web page:

https://www.baesystems.com/en/heritage/bristol-156-beaufighter

Picture 1 in the gallery shows Beaufighter 'X' with:

• underwing rockets
• dihedral tailplanes
• no fin fillet
• D/F loop blister on the fuselage top
• nose-mounted camera
• cut-away rear blister with a machine gun

This might look like a rocket-armed Mk.VIC or, possibly, a Mk.XI and, by the look of it, I'd think 1943 or early 1944 as a possible date. The aircraft, though, has 'C type' roundels above the wings, that would rather suggest 1945, although lack of unit codes seems unusual for that time.

 

Any ideas? Just out of curiosity (and having a Beau in the stash).

 

Claudio

 

 

That photo has been publsihed her as being a MkX of 19Sqd SAAF in the Aegen Sea area during 1945. Colours aparantly Dark Slate Grey/Extra Dark Sea Grey and Azure blue undersides. Oh yes Orange SAAF roundals serial number N?208?

Edited January 6, 2018 by Charlie Hugo

[Seahawk]

3 hours ago, Charlie Hugo said:

That photo has been publsihed her as being a MkX of 19Sqd SAAF in the Aegen Sea area during 1945. Colours aparantly Dark Slate Grey/Extra Dark Sea Grey and Azure blue undersides. Oh yes Orange SAAF roundals serial number N?208?

That ident makes sense to me: my instinctive reaction was late-war Mediterranean.  No doubt @Tony O'Toole, knower of all things RAF Mediterranean, will be along soon to confirm.  Unfortunately there are no photos of 19 SAAF Sq Beaufighters in the Red Kite Beaufighter Squadrons book.  To me the upper surfaces look a bit high contrast for DSG/EDSG though who knows what the Mediterranean sun might do.

 

PS is that an aerial half way along the rear spine, above the roundel?  Can't say I've spotted one there before.

Edited January 6, 2018 by Seahawk

[Charlie Hugo]

25 minutes ago, Seahawk said:

That ident makes sense to me: my instinctive reaction was late-war Mediterranean.  No doubt #Tony O'Toole, knower of all things RAF Mediterranean, will be along soon to confirm.  Unfortunately there are no photos of 19 SAAF Sq Beaufighters in the Red Kite Beaufighter Squadrons book.  To me the upper surfaces look a bit high contrast for DSG/EDSG though who knows what the Mediterranean sun might do.

 

PS is that an aerial half way along the rear spine, above the roundel?  Can't say I've spotted one there before.

Other aircraft (from 16 Squadron SAAF) are captioned as being in Dark Green and Ocean grey with Sky under sides. Take your pic

Otehr aircraft photograph very dark, but that could just be a factor of the photograph.

As to the aerial, yes it appears on at least one other 19 squadron aircraft. Code letter A , NV480, this is one of the darker (lower contrast) aircraft

[Meatbox8]

I would definitely go with a SAAF aircraft.  My initial thought was that it was a SEAC aircraft because the fuselage C type roundel appears, at first glance, to have had the 'meatball' overpainted in white, a bit like 136 Squadron Hurricanes.  Then, looking at the fin flash you can clearly see a differential between the 'red' and the thin white stripe, suggesting the red section is in a paler colour (orange) and that the meatball has just bleached out in the photo.

[Troy Smith]

3 hours ago, Charlie Hugo said:

MkX of 19Sqd SAAF in the Aegen Sea area during 1945

 I googled up SAAF Beaufighter Aegean and the linked pic led to a youtube vid, watched a little.

 

has some images, and the story from one ofthe pilots,  as wellas that sobering matter of factness you seem to get from  veterans

 

video posted by Tinus le Roux, who does this site

here's the photo albums,  which may turn up  more images

http://biltongbru.wixsite.com/ww2-saaf-heritage/photo-albums

 

@tonyot  will probably know more.

 

@Giorgio N  you need to use the @ not   #  to  bring a notification.

 

 

 

Edited January 6, 2018 by Troy Smith
add detail

[tonyot]

It is a SAAF Beau,.... as for the camouflage,...... the RAF MU`s in the Med appear to have their own concoction for the TSS which didn`t fade as quickly,..... you can see it here on the Beau in front of the Halbag;

HP_Halifax_Bomberson_dispersal by Tony OToole, on Flickr

 

The Dark Slate Grey part of the camo on the above Beau looks much darker and greener! This was also evident on Baltimore`s, Ventura`s etc.  The undersides on these Beau`s could be Sky or Azure Blue,..... some look too light to be Azure Blue in B&W pics.  This hints at an in theatre repaint at some stage, rather than the UK applied TSS colours. 

 

The tube pointing from the nose is a strike camera and many of them also had an ASV Yagi antenna under the nose too,... which was sometimes blanked out of the pic by the censor. Also note the cut down Observer`s canopy to incorporate a rear firing gun.

 

Here is a model that I made some time ago of a SAAF Beau,....using the Xtradecal sheet `Med Twins' which I researched;

Beau SAAF- 72nd by Tony OToole, on Flickr

 

All the best,

                 Tony

 

EDIT,.....I don`t know if this is any better, but here is Beau X again, which I believe was a 16 Sqn SAAF machine;

10297667_780209775361404_8025994133160067420_n by Tony OToole, on Flickr

 

Here is another Beau from 19 Sqn SAAF;

19 Sqdn SAAF0048 by Tony OToole, on Flickr

 

A word on the UK applied TSS on Beau`s,....compare these pics of the sane aircraft in colour and B&W;

 

144 SQN LEUCHARS by Tony OToole, on Flickr

 

601 Sqn RAF (EDIT,....603 Sqn!!!)   was also part of the same wing and was renumbered as a SAAF unit;

beau 601 sqn by Tony OToole, on Flickr

 

Cheers

         Tony

Edited January 6, 2018 by tonyot

[Graham Boak]

What a fabulous picture of those Halifaxes.  However from this picture I can certainly see why some of the Beaus are said to have been in Dark Green and Ocean Grey. 

 

But 601 Sq?  Didn't they have Spitfires all the way up Italy to being disbanded after the end of hostilities?  19 Sq SAAF absorbed the material of 227 Sq RAF, so I think this is the unit concerned.

Edited January 6, 2018 by Graham Boak

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

I read the serial # as X7543 but it could be 7548. 

[dogsbody]

Some No.19 Sq. images here:

 

http://saafww2pilots.yolasite.com/steve-stevens-photographs.php

 

 

Chris

[tonyot]

3 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

What a fabulous picture of those Halifaxes.  However from this picture I can certainly see why some of the Beaus are said to have been in Dark Green and Ocean Grey. 

 

But 601 Sq?  Didn't they have Spitfires all the way up Italy to being disbanded after the end of hostilities?  19 Sq SAAF absorbed the material of 227 Sq RAF, so I think this is the unit concerned.

My mistake,....I meant 603 Sqn,...... I knew that it was an early 600 series Aux unit!  

[Graham Boak]

Interesting!  That took a bit of digging out - 603 was with Beaufighters in the Aegean in 1944, but (initially at least) with 201 Wing and didn't disband until December - at least that's the date I have for them on their way home.  For some reason they are missing from Rawlings Coastal (and all the other) Squadrons, where I expected to find a better date.  However Steve McLean, in his Squadrons of the SAAF, is quite specific that 19 Sq SAAF was officially formed from 227 Sq RAF on August 15th, under 283 Wing.  He makes no mention of 603 Sq, and the formation date seems significantly too early.  However, presumably the aircraft and even  some of the crews must have gone somewhere within the theatre.  It would be interesting to trace the movements of Beaufighters known to have been in 603 to see where they went next.  Anyone with a set of Air Britain serial books (apart from me) is welcome to go digging.

[Seahawk]

9 hours ago, Charlie Hugo said:

 Oh yes Orange SAAF roundals serial number N?208?

Despite my well-developed imagination I cannot discern the slightest hint of a serial in the shadows and take my hat off to those who can.  No record of NV208 serving with 19 SAAF Sq but NV209 did, after earlier service with 39 Sq.  Lost 2 Jun 1945 4m S of Biferno.

[Seahawk]

57 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

Interesting!  That took a bit of digging out - 603 was with Beaufighters in the Aegean in 1944, but (initially at least) with 201 Wing and didn't disband until December - at least that's the date I have for them on their way home.  For some reason they are missing from Rawlings Coastal (and all the other) Squadrons, where I expected to find a better date.  However Steve McLean, in his Squadrons of the SAAF, is quite specific that 19 Sq SAAF was officially formed from 227 Sq RAF on August 15th, under 283 Wing.  He makes no mention of 603 Sq, and the formation date seems significantly too early.  However, presumably the aircraft and even  some of the crews must have gone somewhere within the theatre.  It would be interesting to trace the movements of Beaufighters known to have been in 603 to see where they went next.  Anyone with a set of Air Britain serial books (apart from me) is welcome to go digging.

Jim Halley (Squadrons of the RAF and Commonwealth 1912-1988) agrees with McLean on the formation of 19 SAAF Sqn, both date and antecedent unit.  Of 603 Sq he says that the lack of targets in the Aegean and off Greece enabled it to return to the UK in Dec 44: it reformed on Spitfires in Jan 45.

[ClaudioN]

Thank you all for your replies and a very interesting discussion. The amount of knowledge on BM is astonishing.

Although I had a feeling 'X' might be "something SAAF", a number of items were misleading me. One of them was the BAE Systems caption "over the North Sea".

Then, I diid not know SAAF also changed to a 'C type' overwing roundel.

Perhaps the most unusual feature is the rear canopy. I would expect a Beaufighter Mk. X to have an enclosed gun position. Maybe in this case the armament is something more substantial than a .303?

 

Tony,

the colour picture shows a Beaufighter coded 'X', possibly the same one? ...and I didn't expect to see Halifax Mk. IIs in late 1944/early1945. Codes 'GR' are of No. 301 Sqn (formerly No. 1568 SD Flight).

 

BTW, the mine-layer shown under attack in Fiume harbour in the youtube video appears to be the former Italian ship 'Ramb III'. This was a fast banana ship converted into a Regia Marina auxiliary cruiser on the outbreak of war, taken over by the Germans, converted into a mine-layer in 1944 and renamed 'Kiebitz'. Post war, it was rebuilt for the Yugoslav Navy, renamed 'Galeb' and used as a cadet training ship and official yacht of president Tito.

[tonyot]

10 hours ago, ClaudioN said:

Tony,

the colour picture shows a Beaufighter coded 'X', possibly the same one? ...and I didn't expect to see Halifax Mk. IIs in late 1944/early1945. Codes 'GR' are of No. 301 Sqn (formerly No. 1568 SD Flight).

Hiya Claudio,

                Yes the Halibag`s were with 1586 SD Flight/301 (SD) Sqn operating from Lecce in the Special Duties role dropping supplies and agents around the Med/Balkans and also into Poland itself. Some of them had brilliant nose art including one with a huge white pegasus,..although I don`t know the serial or code letter!

Here are some other pics;

 

and of course they had some Liberators too, as seen in the above pic also;

 

And returned to the UK after the war to fly Halifax transports;

 

Cheers

          Tony