1:72 Airfix BAC TSR.2

[Navy Bird]

Yeah, not sure what's going on with the resin intakes. I don't want to dis CMK, but I've encountered weird stuff like this from them in the past. All part of the game, don't you think?  

 

Another issue with the CMK intakes is that the shock cone (is that the right term?) stands off from the surface of the fuselage, which of course is not right as we can see here (this is XR222):

 

 

However, this is OK, because the inner wall of the CMK intake does indeed stand off as seen here, and is nice and thin like the kit part is not. So, it will be a simple matter to add some styrene to the underside of the cone so it will contact the fuselage wall. Putty is your friend. The stuff I use is a red-brown colour, and it's going to make the model look pretty strange while I'm building it!

 

This photo also illustrates another aspect of the intake rather nicely, and that's the transition from a circular shape (at the front of the intake) to a more square shape (at the aft end of the intake where it meets the fuselage proper). CMK didn't provide enough resin (or it shrank after pouring) at the aft end, so we'll have to build that up a bit. It's not off by a huge amount, just a millimetre or two.

 

Carry on!

 

Cheers,

Bill

[Ratch]

I should pay attention to your build as I shall be doing some of the changes that you're undertaking

[giemme]

Nice shot of the intake, Bill. Your plan for fairing in the resin intake makes perfectly sense, but 

36 minutes ago, Navy Bird said:

It's not off by a huge amount, just a millimetre or two.

you were being sarcastic here, right? Two millimeters sound a lot in this scale ...

 

Ciao

[Navy Bird]

50 minutes ago, giemme said:

Nice shot of the intake, Bill. Your plan for fairing in the resin intake makes perfectly sense, but 

you were being sarcastic here, right? Two millimeters sound a lot in this scale ...

 

Me? Sarcastic? Never! Really, though, what's 2mm? It's twice 1mm, so that means two dollops of putty except for one. I've seen a lot worse! Remember my Buffalo with the "gaposis extremis?"  

 

So, let's look at some pictures. First, here's the slight gap under the cone.

 

 

It looks a little bigger in the photo than in real life. The plan is to build up the bottom of the cone with some styrene like this:

 

 

Much easier to get the final shape of the styrene piece while it's glued to the resin. I'll also use a bit of putty to blend the edges of these guys together before attaching to the fuselage. Let's do a trial fit and see where we are. Will it work?

 

 

I think so. With a little pressure I can make the cone have complete contact which is what we're looking for. Now, note that the bottom curved edge at the rear of the resin intake matches the kit pretty well. I think adding the strip of styrene has helped push everything up a bit. The only area that's clearly off is at the top of the rear of the intake, and after measuring it, it's actually only off about 1mm. Not as bad as originally suspected.

 

However, I think the intake on the port side is a bit worse. Oh well, we shall move forward. Have scalpel and putty - need stitches!   

 

Cheers,

Bill

[giemme]

1 hour ago, Navy Bird said:

need stitches!   

Aaargh! Please don't wound yourself! - Or you need them for the kit?

 

The 1 mm gap seems a more reasonable job.

 

Ciao 

[Navy Bird]

I haven't been loafing around, really. I actually did a little work - but I've also been reading both of my TSR.2 tomes, and man there's a lotta words in them. Geez. So here's what I did on the model. First, I prepared the resin pieces for the exhaust. You'll notice that I'm using the photoetch pieces (flame holders?) from Eduard as well. They're a perfect fit. (I realize this same feature is cast into the resin piece. I don't think you'll see it though. Probably won't see the photoetch!) Eduard also have this nifty roll-up afterburner petal thingy, but to be honest I think I prefer the resin. Virtually nothing will be seen of the exhaust except what's inside, and almost all that lovely Eduard detail is on the outside.

 

 

I also painted some features in the main gear bay the characteristic orange colour that you see in the photos. There is a lot more detail that can be added, but I tend to leave that off until after painting so that whatever I mask the bays with doesn't do any damage.

 

 

I read that the components that were painted orange were related to specific equipment used for the flight test programme. Whether that's true of these (what are they?) I don't know. I painted the wheel wells with Gunze H332 Light Aircraft Grey. Many of the photos on-line make it look like the wheel wells were white, but I think that may be due to the flash on the camera. Close-up photos, like these, show what looks like a grey colour.

 

http://data.primeportal.net/hangar/luc_colin/tsr2/images/tsr2_10_of_57.jpg

http://data.primeportal.net/hangar/luc_colin/tsr2/images/tsr2_24_of_57.jpg

 

Plus, there is the link that I shared earlier where Mr. Burke states that the wheel wells were light grey. He be the boss. The internal surface of some, but not all apparently, of the gear doors were white however.

 

Next I decided that I would display the model with the airbrakes open. I know, I know, it would not appear this way on the ground. The airbrakes on the TSR.2 were an interesting design, where all four doors were driven by a central screw instead of individual controls. This was apparently problematic during the short test program, and most flights were made with the brakes not completely closed. In any event, if they were giving trouble, that means some erk had to be working on them on the ground. When they were all open. Like my model. See? You can always come up with a reason for what you're doing. Besides, I bought that nice resin stuff for the interior of the airbrakes and the doors themselves. Gotta use it!

 

And to use it, you have to hack away at the fuselage. On the top side, you need to remove the bit as I've shown here:

 

 

Note the bit missing on the left. You also need to tweak and shape the remaining opening to match the resin piece. I suppose you could sand away at the resin, but that would be counterproductive detail-wise. I fit both of the resin pieces into the top piece of the fuselage, and I fully expect that I'll have to "fine-tune" the side of the fuselage to match.

 

 

CMK provide the cross-piece that connects the door actuator to the central drive screw (hence the little hole). I like having this shown on the model, as it tells one of the unique stories about this aircraft.

 

The modifications to the bottom of the fuselage for the lower airbrakes will be more substantial, and I'm avoiding them at the moment.

 

I finished building up the intakes to match the fuselage, complete with fine sanding. Not a big job really, just a few applications of putty. Then I remembered something - there is an additional piece that goes on top of the fuselage, in front of the wings. This piece:

 

 

See the two "tabs" on each side? Those babies also have to fair into the top of the intakes. Airfix have moulded this with a rather blunt edge at front. It's no better if you use the kit intakes, there's a step there when this piece is installed. Really odd engineering, I think, but we'll have to deal with it. This area is all smoothly blended together on the real aircraft, there is no step. I'll start by sanding the tabs above so that they have a nice sharp edge at front, as that will match the real thing better than trying to build up more putty on top of the intake to match the blunt tabs.

 

Repeat after me - I love making models. I love making models.   

 

Cheers,

Bill

[giemme]

I love making models. I love making models

I love making models. I love making models

I love making models. I love making models

 

(... currently dealing with resin myself, although only limited to the Hog's tub ...  )

 

Ciao

[David H]

General Melchett observed that the basic shapes of the 72nd scale BWPT were generally okay, but then the Company scaled the model up to 48th scale, all manner of dimensional errors manifested themselves in some pretty hard to correct places, like the intakes, the width of the forward fuselage and that piece you mention that spans the gap between the intakes and the main upper wing box.

 

Using a single drive train, to mechanically actuate all four speed brakes? Only the British could come up with that one.

 

My guess about the orange boxes in the wheel wells.... maybe some kind of vibration sensors to pick up loads being transmitted up thru the gear trucks? I know TSR2 had some odd vibration/resonance problems early on in testing. The undercarriage gave them troubles, only slightly less maddening than those which befell the XB-70...

 

-d-

 

[vigilant]

On 1/5/2018 at 6:11 PM, Navy Bird said:

 

You know, that may be a good idea. Those wheel well pieces are a bit heavy. I think Scale Aircraft Conversions have a white metal set for the Airfix kit. I wonder if it will fix the "splay" problem? Oh well, there goes my wallet again...

 

 

Everyone is welcome! I think it will be a fun project, and I look forward to advice and counsel from my fellow Britmodellers. I'm sure I will have a few questions along the way.

 

Cheers,

Bill

i,ll keep watching you, i have a 1/72 tsr 2 and have been thinking of those resin parts, but not sure, see how you get on

vigilant(paul)

[Martian]

Ah, didn't we mention the fit and the ton of filler you will be needing?

 

Forgetful of Mars

[Navy Bird]

4 hours ago, David H said:

General Melchett observed that the basic shapes of the 72nd scale BWPT were generally okay, but then the Company scaled the model up to 48th scale, all manner of dimensional errors manifested themselves in some pretty hard to correct places, like the intakes, the width of the forward fuselage and that piece you mention that spans the gap between the intakes and the main upper wing box.

 

Using a single drive train, to mechanically actuate all four speed brakes? Only the British could come up with that one.

 

My guess about the orange boxes in the wheel wells.... maybe some kind of vibration sensors to pick up loads being transmitted up thru the gear trucks? I know TSR2 had some odd vibration/resonance problems early on in testing. The undercarriage gave them troubles, only slightly less maddening than those which befell the XB-70...

 

I've read that about the quarter scale BWPT, er, excuse me, the 1:48 scale BWPT (talk about giving away my Yankee-ness). Even Airfix admits that you can't just scale up or down - maybe this was one of their lessons.  

 

I seem to recall that a veritable bevy of Britmodellers tackled that beast with aplomb - the @general melchett hisself, @TheStig, our Ukrainian pal @Seversky, and Our Favourite Extraterrestrial @Martian Hale. There may be others, but these are the ones that I bookmarked.

 

The single drive train for the airbrakes is discussed in detail in Burke's book. One problem was getting them to close at the same time. All but four of the test flights were made with all airbrakes open about 1.5" - this can clearly be seen in the photos. The rams connecting the petals to the central screwjack went through tunnels in the rear fuselage fuel tank. I understand that production aircraft would have had independent hydraulic rams for each airbrake, and perforated doors due to buffeting when fully open.

 

Good thought on the possibility of vibration sensors - XR220 has them as well, but she never flew. She also has the extra strut affixed to the main gear which supposedly cured the vibration problem on XR219. I wondered if there was still some residual problem? I remember reading that the vibration matched a resonant frequency in the vitreous humour of the eyeball - giving the pilot blurred vision during landing. Not a good thing!

 

2 hours ago, vigilant said:

i,ll keep watching you, i have a 1/72 tsr 2 and have been thinking of those resin parts, but not sure, see how you get on

vigilant(paul)

 

If you have some experience with resin, I haven't seen any major issues yet. Just the usual sanding, grinding, and cursing. But if you're new to the stuff, this might not be a good project to learn with!   

 

1 hour ago, Martian Hale said:

Ah, didn't we mention the fit and the ton of filler you will be needing?

 

I have enough filler and sandpaper to last longer than this project, my fine feathered fellow. You surely recall that my stash is populated with such upstanding denizens of the hobby industry as Special Hobby, Roden, RS, MPM, an occasional AModel, Valom, Anigrand, AML, Azur, Avis, and who knows what else. Shake and bake kits don't interest me much - they go together too quickly and my display case isn't that big!   

 

Cheers,

Bill

 

[general melchett]

Hey Bill, sorry to have missed the start of this one, a notification came through mentioning that I'd been cited for something, (usually that means trouble but fair enough I thought...I'll go take a butchers', and glad I did).

 

Great subject choice, if there's anything you think I can help you with please ask, as a member of the Project Cancelled SIG over here in Blighty I can find out most things TSR related from our team of certifiable egg-heads.

Quote

 

Shake and bake kits don't interest me much - they go together too quickly and my display case isn't that big!    

 

 

By thunder...I couldn't have put it better myself...

 

Cheers

 

Melch

[Seversky]

to Navy Bird

Good work, I look forward to the continuation and the final!

[Navy Bird]

3 hours ago, general melchett said:

Great subject choice, if there's anything you think I can help you with please ask, as a member of the Project Cancelled SIG over here in Blighty I can find out most things TSR related from our team of certifiable egg-heads.

 

Thanks, I'm sure I'll be asking more questions as this project proceeds. I didn't know there was a Project Cancelled SIG - there must be some great subjects covered in that one! I have a bunch of "cancelled" kits that I desperately want to build like the XA2D-1, XF-103, XF-108, XF-109, YF-107, XP-67, XF8U-3, XF5F, XF2R-1, CF-105, etc. I need more time!  

 

3 hours ago, Seversky said:

to Navy Bird

Good work, I look forward to the continuation and the final!

 

Thanks. I just had a look at your RFI post here on BM, and the pictures are back! They were missing for a while, probably due to our wonderful pals at Photobucket. Thanks for getting them back online - if anyone hasn't yet had a look at this build, you should. Superbly done! I don't know if I can achieve that level of detail in the smaller scale, but I'll do what I can.

 

Cheers,

Bill

[David H]

Upon doing a little bit of follow up reading, it seems the engine driven fuel pumps were believed to be the primary cause of the vibration/resonance problem, though the undercarriage struts were a lesser actor as well. I suspect the combination of single wheels in tandem, combined with the outboard cant of the legs presented problems not previously encountered.

 

Going to individual hydraulic actuators for the air brakes sounds like the right move; you could offer a degree of redundancy, if the plane had dual hydraulic systems for basic flight controls as i suspect.

 

-d-

[Tailspin Turtle]

19 hours ago, Navy Bird said:

I also painted some features in the main gear bay the characteristic orange colour that you see in the photos.

I read that the components that were painted orange were related to specific equipment used for the flight test programme. Whether that's true of these (what are they?) I don't know.

 

Cheers,

Bill

Painting flight-test hardware orange is pretty standard in the industry.

[Navy Bird]

35 minutes ago, David H said:

Upon doing a little bit of follow up reading, it seems the engine driven fuel pumps were believed to be the primary cause of the vibration/resonance problem, though the undercarriage struts were a lesser actor as well. I suspect the combination of single wheels in tandem, combined with the outboard cant of the legs presented problems not previously encountered.

 

Going to individual hydraulic actuators for the air brakes sounds like the right move; you could offer a degree of redundancy, if the plane had dual hydraulic systems for basic flight controls as i suspect.

 

-d-

 

According to Burke, the engine vibration (which was the one with same resonant frequency as the eye) and the landing gear vibration (which was a lateral movement that threw the flight crew side to side against their harnesses during landing) were two separate issues. I think I was conflating them. The fuel pump turned out to be the bad boy for the engine vibration, and the "Aylesbury Tie", the additional link on the landing gear, helped the other issue. Oscillation is a better word for the landing gear problem.

 

Cheers,

Bill

[general melchett]

Quote

 I didn't know there was a Project Cancelled SIG - there must be some great subjects covered in that one! I have a bunch of "cancelled" kits that I desperately want to build like the XA2D-1, XF-103, XF-108, XF-109, YF-107, XP-67, XF8U-3, XF5F, XF2R-1, CF-105, etc. I need more time!   

There certainly are Bill, many weird and wonderful contrivances...all the above and many, many more...especially the US, UK, French and Soviet paper project stuff. I have a frightening amount of plastic/resin to work through but I have a sneaking suspicion that Niburu, the Annunaki or the 'Coming of the Great White Handkerchief' will make an appearance before I manage to finish them.

 

I never got around to finishing the 1/72nd version, it still languishes in its dusty, original box...but maybe that will change after this.

Edited January 16, 2018 by general melchett

[FZ6]

Looking good Bill. I didn't realise you had air intakes as well. I have them and mne don't fit either so I'm going to back to the kit parts and will add the CMK FOD Covers that came with the set for a bit of colour on mine. 

[Seversky]

17 hours ago, Navy Bird said:

Thanks. I just had a look at your RFI post here on BM, and the pictures are back! They were missing for a while, probably due to our wonderful pals at Photobucket. Thanks for getting them back online - if anyone hasn't yet had a look at this build, you should. Superbly done! I don't know if I can achieve that level of detail in the smaller scale, but I'll do what I can.

Thank you!
Thanks to you, I saw that the photos disappeared. )))
Your model will get even better, I have no doubt!

[David H]

On 1/15/2018 at 7:59 AM, Navy Bird said:

 

According to Burke, the engine vibration (which was the one with same resonant frequency as the eye) and the landing gear vibration (which was a lateral movement that threw the flight crew side to side against their harnesses during landing) were two separate issues. I think I was conflating them. The fuel pump turned out to be the bad boy for the engine vibration, and the "Aylesbury Tie", the additional link on the landing gear, helped the other issue. Oscillation is a better word for the landing gear problem.

 

Cheers,

Bill

I was trying to use less-expensive words to help keep costs under control. I failed. 50 lashes with a wet noodle.

-d-

[Navy Bird]

On 1/16/2018 at 18:48, David H said:

I was trying to use less-expensive words to help keep costs under control. I failed. 50 lashes with a wet noodle.

 

My mistake, as I confused the two issues thinking they were the same. That's why we have books written by subject matter experts - so I can go back and retrieve something I had already read but then forgot! I love this getting old thing...

 

So, where are we? First, I drilled some holes into the vents on top of the intakes. These are quite prominent on the actual aircraft due to their size. They're not round in real life, so I'll have to shape these better with a sharp scalpel. I have the first aid cream and bandages ready.

 

 

The nose gear bay and cockpit were added to the starboard fuselage half. I always do it this way - I never put them in the port half. I wonder why. Anyway, I then test fit the navigator's instrument panel with a dab of white glue, and I think it protrudes too much from the front of the rear cockpit opening. Also, the section of the panel that is attached to the port console is therefore not in the right spot relative to the panel.

 

 

See what I mean? This was pretty easy to fix with a sanding stick.

 

 

You can see that I also added the resin pieces that provide structural detail to the side walls of the front offices. It also looks like I closed up the fuselage:

 

 

 

I don't trust the seam on top of the rear fuselage, so this was reinforced underneath with strips of styrene.

 

 

The rear fuselage will also need some "spreaders" that set the sides to the correct width, based on the lower fuselage piece. I could do this with just some glue, but I think I'd feel better with spreaders made from some thick styrene rod. It's not the strongest design, and I don't want to risk the seams splitting at some point.

 

The big chunk of resin (the main landing gear wells) slips in easily with the fuselage halves closed up, but it looks like its final positioning and gluing will need to wait until the bottom section goes on. It will be a bit tricky.

 

Now, about the wings. Well, I plan to add them. It would look odd without them. However, there are several pieces remaining for the top of the fuselage, and I'm not going to follow the instructions as Airfix have them. The top three pieces (above the intakes, the wing top, and the rear fuselage top) will be assembled prior to putting them on the model. I think this is the best way to ensure a proper fit, and have the top of the model look "right." We'll find out!

 

Cheers,

Bill

[Martian]

2 hours ago, Navy Bird said:

 

My mistake, as I confused the two issues thinking they were the same. That's why we have books written by subject matter experts - so I can go back and retrieve something I had already read but then forgot! I love this getting old thing...

 

So, where are we? First, I drilled some holes into the vents on top of the intakes. These are quite prominent on the actual aircraft due to their size. They're not round in real life, so I'll have to shape these better with a sharp scalpel. I have the first aid cream and bandages ready.

 

 

The nose gear bay and cockpit were added to the starboard fuselage half. I always do it this way - I never put them in the port half. I wonder why. Anyway, I then test fit the navigator's instrument panel with a dab of white glue, and I think it protrudes too much from the front of the rear cockpit opening. Also, the section of the panel that is attached to the port console is therefore not in the right spot relative to the panel.

 

 

See what I mean? This was pretty easy to fix with a sanding stick.

 

 

You can see that I also added the resin pieces that provide structural detail to the side walls of the front offices. It also looks like I closed up the fuselage:

 

 

 

I don't trust the seam on top of the rear fuselage, so this was reinforced underneath with strips of styrene.

 

 

The rear fuselage will also need some "spreaders" that set the sides to the correct width, based on the lower fuselage piece. I could do this with just some glue, but I think I'd feel better with spreaders made from some thick styrene rod. It's not the strongest design, and I don't want to risk the seams splitting at some point.

 

The big chunk of resin (the main landing gear wells) slips in easily with the fuselage halves closed up, but it looks like its final positioning and gluing will need to wait until the bottom section goes on. It will be a bit tricky.

 

Now, about the wings. Well, I plan to add them. It would look odd without them. However, there are several pieces remaining for the top of the fuselage, and I'm not going to follow the instructions as Airfix have them. The top three pieces (above the intakes, the wing top, and the rear fuselage top) will be assembled prior to putting them on the model. I think this is the best way to ensure a proper fit, and have the top of the model look "right." We'll find out!

 

Cheers,

Bill

Nice progress Bill, you are quite right not to trust the fit of any part of this kit. I still bear the mental scars to prove it!

 

Martian

[giemme]

Wow, fuselage halves closed up already? Great going!

 

Ciao

[Navy Bird]

Next up is the wing surgery!   

 

CMK provide nicely detailed resin flaps for the wings, and to have these display properly it's necessary to remove a large portion of the lower wing and replace it with resin parts. At first glance you wonder why on earth you should do this - it seems the resin parts look just like the kit part. However, the difference is in the thickness, and using the resin allows some very nice sharp trailing edges to the flaps. Plus, to lower the flaps using the kit parts, you'd have to cut through those actuator fairings. And then thin them down. Doable, but not fun. So here is the lower wing piece as supplied by Airfix:

 

 

After some careful measurements (done more than once and hopefully right!) I cut off the required piece using a metal straight edge and a scriber:

 

 

The replacement resin parts will attach to the lower wing in the same place (I'll be gluing them later):

 

 

Wing surgery, Part Deux!   

 

The upper wing assembly needs to have the flaps cut out. We start with the kit wing:

 

 

Cut out the flaps, using a scriber and a small razor saw, and then we can see how the resin flaps will attach.

 

 

I'll be thinning the edges on the upper wing where I made the cut to allow the resin flaps to "seat" better. When it's all together I think it will look pretty good. Since I'll be modelling the kit with the flaps down, this will give me the additional artistic license to have the flaps on the "tailerons" deflected slightly as well. And the airbrakes open, etc. All those things you'd probably never see when it was on the ground.

 

I also added the spreader I mentioned. It took a bit of trial and error to get the length just right, but this spreads the rear fuselage sides apart just enough to align well with the lower fuselage piece. It also makes it nice and strong, eliminating a lot of stress on those lower seams.

 

 

I believe I have the spreader in a spot where it won't interfere with anything. The lower airbrakes are in front of the spreader, and the exhausts aren't long enough to reach this far. The upper airbrakes aren't deep enough to reach it, so it should be OK. I'm probably forgetting something that will go right there!  

 

I'll have a go at getting the wing section together. I dry fitted everything and it looks like the top of the wing will be nice and flat, and that the three pieces will fit together well. That's the plan anyway. To be honest, I heard a lot of horror stories about this kit, but it's been fine so far. Maybe it's just its larger sibling that's a bear.

 

Cheers,

Bill