huvut76g7gbbui7 Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 That's two of us then! I even looked up an old thread on the Alcock and Brown Phantoms in which a certain @71chally of that ilk asked if the two were ever photographed together I'll see the result tomorrow as I'm now about to crash out. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
71chally Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 DuncanB gave a strong clue earlier. It's not particularly Phantom related but if you look hard there is a very small difference. I never knew it until the painters involved told me about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huvut76g7gbbui7 Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 Just now, 71chally said: told me about it. Now I know..so good night! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Coombs Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 34 minutes ago, 71chally said: Talking of Saints and Phantom special schemes, this is my favourite after Black Mike. At this stage there was only one very tiny difference that gave away which jet was which. Alcock and Brown by Paul, on Flickr Paul - Flickr Later XV486 had '486' added to nose gear door to differentiate it from XV424. Just as an aside, I wonder if the RAF will do anything to commemorate the centenary of Alcock and Browne's Transatlantic flight next year? Back on topic, I'm hoping the Modeldecal markings for the above are a good fit for the new Phantom. Weren't they designed with the old Matchbox kit in mind, which was the only option available back in the day? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
71chally Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 1 minute ago, Scimitar said: I even looked up an old thread on the Alcock and Brown Phantoms in which a certain @71chally of that ilk asked if the two were ever photographed together That was during research on the scheme, I coincidentally found that photo afterwards and was put in touch with someone that knew the painters involved - funny how things come about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tweeky Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 I'm surprised no body's mentioned the Jag Killer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhino Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 7 hours ago, tweeky said: I'm surprised no body's mentioned the Jag Killer? That's available on at least 2 decal sheets. I built one ages ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagRigger Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 Back in the day I used to build model Jags for people leaving Coltishall. One (reluctant) ex-Phantom colleague told me he'd give the pussy cat a test flight if I presented him one. So I made him a flying pair of a certain F4 minus one AIM-9 and a Jag in front of it. He quite liked that I think 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 (edited) Alcock and Browne difference - The colour of the antenna on the spine Edited January 17, 2018 by Dave Fleming 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
71chally Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 Well done Dave, it is indeed the colour of that aerial mid spine area, XV747 having the black aerial. It's an incredibly small detail, but it allows you to identify the jets from each other from most angles. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sloegin57 Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 36 minutes ago, 71chally said: Well done Dave, it is indeed the colour of that aerial mid spine area, XV747 having the black aerial. It's an incredibly small detail, but it allows you to identify the jets from each other from most angles. Of course a few other minor differences not mentioned but fairly noticeable, with specs, are the rotating nozzles, one less crew member and one less engine - And the anhedral is on both wings and tailplane. I'll get me coat !!! Dennis 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duncan B Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 4 minutes ago, sloegin57 said: Of course a few other minor differences not mentioned but fairly noticeable, with specs, are the rotating nozzles, one less crew member and one less engine - And the anhedral is on both wings and tailplane. I'll get me coat !!! Dennis But other than those small details...... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sloegin57 Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 OK peeps - give me half an hour to get some stuff uploaded to Imgur and I'll put up a few shots of mine of XT863 which for some reason seems to be "flavour of the day". I'll add a few more FG.1's of interest after (after when I am not sure !) Dennis 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
71chally Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 Oh bum, don't you just love predictive text! - XV424 I would love to see some more FG.1 shots Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sloegin57 Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 (edited) OK - that took a little longer than expected plus a mandatory coffee break was called for. FG.1 shots taken ver a period of years - mainly XT863 (they should be self explanatory :- On the day that 892 left Leuchars for the last time. XT863 was off loaded from the Ark Royal to St Athan on the 27th November 1978. The aircraft was delivered to 111Sqdn on the 10th April 1980. During that period she was flown from St's to Brough for the ILS fit, Gun mod and outer mainplanes replacement. Apparently she flew there in 892's markings and back to St's in primer. It must be remembered that '863 was one of five aircraft delivered to Leuchars in the original dead matt scheme. After complaints by the Squadrons that these aircraft were almost impossible to keep clean, the paint formulae was changed to a smoother satin finish. This change affected the perceived look of the finish, the Barley grey taking on a distinctive, under certain conditions of bright sunlight, blueish haze. This in turn led to the belief that the upper surfaces of the Phantoms were all the same colour and I had many conversations with both the late Dick Ward and the late Alan Carlaw about it. Indeed I had an urgent note from Dick asking me to confirm the presence of three colours prior to his releasing MD set 67 where he had incorporated changes to 43's markings that I had advised him of. It did not help either that the Lightnings were beginning to appear with the upper surfaces all Barley Grey and the undersurfaces of the mainplanes and tailplanes Light Aircraft Grey. With the change to the new spec paint, it was found to be easier (much) to keep clean but difficult to differentiate between the Barley Grey of the fuselage and the MSG of the upper inner mainplanes - both having a bluish haze. On the attached photos the difference between the two greys is marked. Later photos will show a subtle difference. Roughly two months after delivery to 111Sqdn The Phantoms at Leuchars were subject to a 28 day washing regime in a dedicated wash hangar. Despite pressure washers and very strong chemicals, the dirt refused to budge an indeed it was found that the very act of scrubbing caused the dirt to be even more ingrained in the matt paint. The photo below was taken deliberately the day after '863 had been scrubbed. The photo above shows how much dirt became ingrained in just a 28 day period. The following shots were taken whilst the aircraft was being prepared for respray in the Ark Royal hangar July 1983 This is XT870, the first grey aircraft that Leuchars received. This aircraft was in the original very matt grey scheme. Looked good - but did not last long. XT863 looked like this - briefly !!. Thats 863 out of the way. I'll put some more up later or tomorrow with reference to the incorrect (as far as the Navy were concerned) outer mainplane undersurfaces in the Airfix kit, additional and various markings for the under surfaces of the outer mainplanes and evidence that St's did not strip all the paint of but a bit of what they put on - did come off. But it was not St's fault Enjoy Dennis Edited January 17, 2018 by sloegin57 6 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhoenixII Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 19 hours ago, Scimitar said: Yesterday I was reading a list on an internet site which gave an easy readable (spreadsheet) history of every British Phantom. Now I can't find it. I was wondering how many Airfix phantoms I would need if I was to build only XT863 in all her guises let alone the others,but I'm not that committed. Richard (did I say I needed 21 Scimitars at last count?) Here ya go Richard, think this may be what you were looking for? www.f4phantomeers.org.uk/RAF%20Phantoms%20history.xls Paul 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cardiff guy Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 Hi All I am really enjoying this thread especially the bits about colours. Have any of you read the article in July 2017 edition of SAM ( I haven't yet ) magazine suggesting that the RN colour is DSG instead of EDSG, can anyone shed light on this. Regards Glenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 (edited) 22 minutes ago, cardiff guy said: Hi All I am really enjoying this thread especially the bits about colours. Have any of you read the article in July 2017 edition of SAM ( I haven't yet ) magazine suggesting that the RN colour is DSG instead of EDSG, can anyone shed light on this. Regards Glenn Did a bit of research on this last year. The ORIGINAL official MDD Paint shop diagrams for the F-4K list the paint as Dark Sea Grey; the same code is used on the F4M diagrams for RAF camouflage. HOWEVER. The late Dick Ward said that the RN always regarded the aircraft as being in Extra Dark Sea Grey, and certainly, whilst the colour does look slightly different to Buccaneers when seen on Ark, it is too dark for DSG, and certainly all the colour photos of early aircraft show a darker colour than you would expect for DSG, and a pretty good match to EDSG. It maybe that the very first aircraft was originally painted a DSG equivalent, (There is a photo that show sit with the 'No 1 F-4K logo overpainted in a darker shade of grey) but I would imagine that the RN would have quickly sorted any issues with colour. Edited January 17, 2018 by Dave Fleming 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canberra kid Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 This may be of interest? John 3 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huvut76g7gbbui7 Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 1 hour ago, PhoenixII said: Here ya go Richard, Thanks Paul. I found this useful as it gave the bare details so was a good starting point for researching a particular airframe. I've saved it ! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huvut76g7gbbui7 Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 Working on the premise that you can never have too many Phantom photographs ..here's a cracking shot of a 43 Sqn FG.1. It's one of Stuart Freer's found on Pinterest 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huvut76g7gbbui7 Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 A useful link http://phantomphacts.blogspot.co.uk/2014/05/differences-between-phantom-fg1-and-fgr2.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missile-monkey Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 21 hours ago, 71chally said: Yeah I absolutely get what you are saying, what I'm asking is did you possibly see it getting it's second set of grey, the grey that we see in the summer '83 air show shots? Given that it was already in a tatty grey finish in May '83. I'm a historian here at St Athan, and there a few Phantom pics in the archive. Saints generally stripped the jets to bare metal, and then repainted, but I wouldn't know if every aircraft was done that way. You would think that a carrier based aircraft would be stripped right back, just for skin corrosion checks. Great to here this stuff from first hand sources. What a cool job.......... MM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eng Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 Next question for the real Phanatics, is there a definitive list of which aircraft had the belly reinforcing plates that are catered for in the kit with the 2 different lower wing sections? I'm looking to build either XV571 or XV577 but cannot seem to find any info in the Double Ugly books, or online that states what aircraft received these, or indeed any clear underside pics of these 2 aircraft. Any clues? Eng Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
71chally Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 (edited) Oh, it's not a job MM (wish it was), and to be fair there is probably about four of us individuals desperately preserving and trying to present various aspects of the stations' history, coming close to getting a display building now, with the possibility of something much grander in the future - something Wales really needs. I have to say, the above posts from Dennis, Duncan and John is what this forum is all about for me, I don't that we could we ask for better information on a single airframe finish history like that. Thank you. Re the FAA Phantoms grey colour, I was under the impression that they were painted in St Louis by MaccyDees in a grey that was roughly equivalent to Dark Sea Grey, but once they had gone through their first repaint in the Navys' hands they became Extra Dark Sea Grey. Don't know if that originates from a reliable source or an just hear say. By the time they spent some time in the air and especially at sea the finish weathered and faded considerably anyway. Edited January 17, 2018 by 71chally 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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