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Col.

Small Wars GB

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As we're have a few GBs which centre on the Second World War and one for the First World War soon perhaps we can get the antithesis going? A Small Wars GB to cover all those 'little local difficulties' that have occured throughout history outwith the scope of most history books. Let's give the big events a miss for a change and turn our attentions to the participants in lesser known events.

What I'd like to propose is a GB to cover any conflict throughout history outwith the major events. Land, sea, or air. The Civil Wars, internal struggles, even the 'let's all pile into a tiny area and get nasty but make sure it doesn't reach the headlines' incidents and regional conflicts that have happened throughout history. Here is your chance to improve the sum of Britmodeller knowledge by sheding light on stuff we may not otherwise have much if any understanding of.

 

Participants,

1, Col. (Co-host)

2, Corsairfoxfouruncle

3, Rob G

4, Wez

5, vppelt68 (Co-host)

6, wyverns4

7, modelling minion

8, Brad

9, Giorgio N

10, CliffB

11, jrlx

12, Botan

13, Sgt.Squarehead

14, Robert Stuart

15, Sabre_days

16, 

 

Edited by Col.

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Im in there are loads of banana wars in the Central and South American countries, Asia, Middle east, and Africa to pick from. I will probably go for a Marine aircraft from the 1920’s or 30’s in a central America Banana war. 

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Interesting proposal. There's certainly plenty of scope in the subject. Could you draft a list of exclusions, or is it just 'the big two' that aren't eligible? I'm thinking that there are some other pretty major conflicts that are fairly well represented in the hobby as a whole that are well apart from WW1 and 2. Korea, Vietnam and the American Civil War come to mind. How about the Finnish Winter War which is usually seen by most of the West as a WW2 event but to the Finns is a conflict all of its own?

 

I'd vote for this one.

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Thank you for your interest gents.

9 hours ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

Im in there are loads of banana wars in the Central and South American countries, Asia, Middle east, and Africa to pick from. I will probably go for a Marine aircraft from the 1920’s or 30’s in a central America Banana war. 

This is exactly what I had in mind for the GB :D 

8 hours ago, Rob G said:

Interesting proposal. There's certainly plenty of scope in the subject. Could you draft a list of exclusions, or is it just 'the big two' that aren't eligible? I'm thinking that there are some other pretty major conflicts that are fairly well represented in the hobby as a whole that are well apart from WW1 and 2. Korea, Vietnam and the American Civil War come to mind. How about the Finnish Winter War which is usually seen by most of the West as a WW2 event but to the Finns is a conflict all of its own?

 

I'd vote for this one.

I agree a list of exclusions would simplify matters but if truth be told I'm still considering how to best word it and your example of the Finnish Winter War is an ideal example of what I want to include. There has been plenty of small conflicts involving major players such as Russia and the USA since the Second World War but excluding anything the Superpowers had direct involvement in along with all the large mass participation conflicts could simplify matters considerably.

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Col, I'd be up for this depending on when it ran (I still have pesky studying to do).

 

There was an interesting discussion about the so called "Lesser Wars" in the Brits Abroad GB thread, I think this GB fits that bill nicely for me at least.

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Just now, Wez said:

Col, I'd be up for this depending on when it ran (I still have pesky studying to do).

 

There was an interesting discussion about the so called "Lesser Wars" in the Brits Abroad GB thread, I think this GB fits that bill nicely for me at least.

Real life does have a rather tiresome habit of getting in the way of our fun but be glad to have you aboard so hope it fits into your study schedule Wez :thumbsup: 

Britain is one of the countries I don't want to exclude from any list even though it can be argued we were once a global Superpower as there was so many small and relatively unknown 'local difficulties' we created or meddeled in during the days of empire building. As, indeed, were so many other Superpowers and Empires throughout history.

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27 minutes ago, Wez said:

depending on when it ran

 

You have acres of time, this won't see the light of GB day until January 2019 at the earliest.

 

But before then it needs 35 (?) people to commit to it, then it'll need to pass the end of year vote...

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4 minutes ago, Rob G said:

 

You have acres of time, this won't see the light of GB day until January 2019 at the earliest.

 

But before then it needs 35 (?) people to commit to it, then it'll need to pass the end of year vote...

Rob,

 

It's not so much whether it gets enough support and gets through the vote, it's all about whether it gets a slot during my non-studying period (Jun-Oct), otherwise I won't have time to participate.

 

Doing a degree by distance learning when you're in your fifties is very time consuming, sometimes I really wish I'd tried harder at school and gone to university when I was in my youth but then, my life wouldn't have turned out the way it has and I wouldn't want to change that (apart from the current need to study).

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I'm in. Would you regard Greek-Turkish air engagements in the last few decades as "too small" wars?

V-P

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1 hour ago, vppelt68 said:

I'm in. Would you regard Greek-Turkish air engagements in the last few decades as "too small" wars?

V-P

The various Greek/Turkish incidents are another perfect example of what this GB is about :thumbsup: 

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Count me in!

 

Probably something South or Central American related. Or there again Middle East, or African, or Central European, or Nordic, or...:hmmm:

 

Christian, exiled to africa

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5 hours ago, Wez said:

Doing a degree by distance learning when you're in your fifties is very time consuming, sometimes I really wish I'd tried harder at school and gone to university when I was in my youth but then, my life wouldn't have turned out the way it has and I wouldn't want to change that (apart from the current need to study).

 

Sounds just like me, except for the not changing life bit; I'd be happy to change every moment of mine, from birth. Also, there's no way I could ever cudgel the brain cells sufficiently to make them accept new facts. I've got the recipe for hot chocolate pinned up above the kettle...

 

Hopefully it'll get through and they can arrange it so that you can participate.

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1 minute ago, Rob G said:

 

Sounds just like me, except for the not changing life bit; I'd be happy to change every moment of mine, from birth. Also, there's no way I could ever cudgel the brain cells sufficiently to make them accept new facts. I've got the recipe for hot chocolate pinned up above the kettle...

 

Hopefully it'll get through and they can arrange it so that you can participate.

I hope it will get through the poll etc, it deserves to, there's many a conflict it could cover, the Soccer War, Bay of Pigs, Indo-Pakistan Wars, lots of colonial conflicts like Algeria and Mozambique to name just a few, the beauty is this type of GB is more inclusive as armour, ship and figure modellers get to play as well as the aircraft modellers.

 

As for timing, well it's not all about me...

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3 hours ago, wyverns4 said:

Count me in!

 

Probably something South or Central American related. Or there again Middle East, or African, or Central European, or Nordic, or...:hmmm:

 

Christian, exiled to africa

There's plenty choice in each of these regions :D 

1 hour ago, Wez said:

I hope it will get through the poll etc, it deserves to, there's many a conflict it could cover, the Soccer War, Bay of Pigs, Indo-Pakistan Wars, lots of colonial conflicts like Algeria and Mozambique to name just a few, the beauty is this type of GB is more inclusive as armour, ship and figure modellers get to play as well as the aircraft modellers.

 

As for timing, well it's not all about me...

The highly inclusive nature of this GB, from both geogrphical and modelling views, is the main reason I thought it worthwhile to propose. It's going to be over a year away at least so perhaps I've plenty time to compile a list of example conflicts that rather than being an exhaustive list will serve to suggest potential options.

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Col, if there has ever been a new GB idea that has a sweet scent of success surrounding it, this is it. This'll be as legendary as the Lesser built AF:s - except with no restrictions to just wingy things or one per country, so most likely even more legendary one day. Me likes 👍. If you need/want help with this, I'd be gladly aboard. V-P

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11 minutes ago, vppelt68 said:

Col, if there has ever been a new GB idea that has a sweet scent of success surrounding it, this is it. This'll be as legendary as the Lesser built AF:s - except with no restrictions to just wingy things or one per country, so most likely even more legendary one day. Me likes 👍. If you need/want help with this, I'd be gladly aboard. V-P

Hopefully enough people will think like us and add their names to our list then vote us through. I'd be honoured to have you as co-host sir :)

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This sounds right up my alley Col.

You can definitely add me to the list, the only problem I will have is deciding which small conflict to cover!

Would the Iran/Iraq war in the 80's be small enough for this one? Got plenty of stuff for that one.

Or maybe something from Indonesia from their many internal "difficulties".

 

Craig.

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Quick question Col. ? Would the Spanish Civil War count ? Or would that be to expansive with all the foreign players involved ? 

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I have a feeling that something similar was proposed before and I supported the idea back then, so count me in this time as well !

I hope this GB gets enough support and enough votes, there are so many potential subjects involved from every part of the world and from different eras

Of course it may not be too simple to define what constitutes a "small war"... and let's start by saying that the term small war itself can be controversial as some lesser known conflicts actually involved way larger forces than some of the wars we know better.. in any case it makes for an easy to use definition. I'm sure we'll find a way to make the GB easy to interpret while making all interested parties happy

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13 hours ago, modelling minion said:

This sounds right up my alley Col.

You can definitely add me to the list, the only problem I will have is deciding which small conflict to cover!

Would the Iran/Iraq war in the 80's be small enough for this one? Got plenty of stuff for that one.

Or maybe something from Indonesia from their many internal "difficulties".

 

Craig.

The Iran/Iraq war may not have been a small affair but is certainly a lesser known one and fine by me as a subject for this GB. As indeed would be any of the Indonesian incidents.

6 hours ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

Quick question Col. ? Would the Spanish Civil War count ? Or would that be to expansive with all the foreign players involved ? 

Hmm, good question. I think this one will help define the envelope for our GB; although it involved the then 'Superpower' that was Germany and can be argued as a precursive action to the Second World War it is sufficiently removed from the main event and a lesser known event in itself so I'll say yes it counts.

5 hours ago, Brad said:

Sounds good.

In that case I've added your name to the list :) 

8 minutes ago, Giorgio N said:

I have a feeling that something similar was proposed before and I supported the idea back then, so count me in this time as well !

I hope this GB gets enough support and enough votes, there are so many potential subjects involved from every part of the world and from different eras

Of course it may not be too simple to define what constitutes a "small war"... and let's start by saying that the term small war itself can be controversial as some lesser known conflicts actually involved way larger forces than some of the wars we know better.. in any case it makes for an easy to use definition. I'm sure we'll find a way to make the GB easy to interpret while making all interested parties happy

You're raising a very good point here Giorgio. As a title the 'Small Wars' may be a little misleading and the alternative 'Lesser Known Wars GB' has a better descriptive nature but was, I feared, rather culturaly specific. We in Western Europe may not be familiar with some conficts which have done a great deal to shape the geo-political sitution in other regions and are therefore more widely known and significant. Either way we'll have at least a year to sort ourselves out ;) 

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13 minutes ago, Col. said:

You're raising a very good point here Giorgio. As a title the 'Small Wars' may be a little misleading and the alternative 'Lesser Known Wars GB' has a better descriptive nature but was, I feared, rather culturaly specific. We in Western Europe may not be familiar with some conficts which have done a great deal to shape the geo-political sitution in other regions and are therefore more widely known and significant. Either way we'll have at least a year to sort ourselves out ;) 

 

You can't win Col, any definition we use will be inadequate for some reason... :lol:

I see that you mentioned the matter of the participation of "superpowers" in conflicts, what's your idea about the many "colonial" wars of the 20th Century ? Would say Aden in the '60s or the Algeria independence war be excluded because of the involvement of Britain and France respectively ? Or the Italian invasion of Ethiopia in 1935?

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6 minutes ago, Giorgio N said:

 

You can't win Col, any definition we use will be inadequate for some reason... :lol:

I see that you mentioned the matter of the participation of "superpowers" in conflicts, what's your idea about the many "colonial" wars of the 20th Century ? Would say Aden in the '60s or the Algeria independence war be excluded because of the involvement of Britain and France respectively ? Or the Italian invasion of Ethiopia in 1935?

 

You've hit the nail on head.

 

To me the colonial wars between a super power and the indigenous population such as those you quoted constitute a lesser war, once they start sucking in more protagonists than that they start going outside of the lesser war theme.

 

The Spanish Civil War is a very good example of a non-lesser war, although it was contained geographically it involved Germany, Italy, Russia, international volunteers and a whole host of neutrals protecting their interests e.g. too many protagonists to allow it to remain a lesser war.

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A great theme and just what I need to restart my Chaco War mojo - so please sign me up :).

 

Re. definitions, here are my thoughts (based on my experience of setting up the Lesser Built AF GB).

 

The objective is presumably to encourage the repesentation of subjects from conflicts which are comparatively rarely seen on the BritModeller forum.  It's not really about the size of the conflict, or who's involved. This is how the cumbersome 'Lesser Built' title came about for the LBAF GB (it was originally going to be called the Small Air Forces GB, but of course that gave problems with China etc). 

 

It also proved to be easiest to produce a list of exclusions, rather than inclusions.  So for the LBAF GB we excluded Britain, America, Germany, Soviet Union and Japan (IIRC) - anywhere else was fine.

 

For a 'Lesser Built Conflicts' GB, any exclusions should obviously include WWII and Vietnam (both of which are frequently represented on BritModeller).  I guess we would also exclude WW1, Korea and the Gulf Wars (as I sense that they have a reasonable representation).  Beyond that I'm struggling to find any other candidates.  Personally, I would class the Spanish Civil War as being 'Lesser Built' (on BM, at least), so would not like to see it excluded.

 

Just my thoughts :winkgrin:

 

Cliff

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Giorgio N said:

 

You can't win Col, any definition we use will be inadequate for some reason... :lol:

I see that you mentioned the matter of the participation of "superpowers" in conflicts, what's your idea about the many "colonial" wars of the 20th Century ? Would say Aden in the '60s or the Algeria independence war be excluded because of the involvement of Britain and France respectively ? Or the Italian invasion of Ethiopia in 1935?

 

1 hour ago, Wez said:

 

You've hit the nail on head.

 

To me the colonial wars between a super power and the indigenous population such as those you quoted constitute a lesser war, once they start sucking in more protagonists than that they start going outside of the lesser war theme.

 

The Spanish Civil War is a very good example of a non-lesser war, although it was contained geographically it involved Germany, Italy, Russia, international volunteers and a whole host of neutrals protecting their interests e.g. too many protagonists to allow it to remain a lesser war.

More good points to consider gents :thumbsup: 

During periods of history the Super Powers have changed; during the Cold War it was the USA and USSR whereas during the days of empire building it was Britain, France, Germany, Italy and others who were roving around causing trouble and even further back it was the Romans, Greeks, Persians and others who took the lead. With each of these protagonists there is a list of smaller nations who had to fight against them and it's their story I'm hoping to see represented in this GB. As @Giorgio N shows there have been conflicts in Aden, Algeria, and Ethiopia which would be excluded if we were to avoid any mention of actions by Britain, France, and Italy. Similarly the Balkan Wars of the 90s would be excluded for that reason. Conversly @Wez is putting forth a good argument for the Spanish Civil War being no 'Small War' but rather a major conflict which in itself could form a stand-alone GB.

Maybe this is where we need a list of excluded conflicts and nations to work away from? To this end let's say we rule out for example subjects from World War One and World War Two, Spanish Civil War (sorry @corsairfoxfouruncle ), Korean Conflict, Vietnam War, Russia/Soviet Union, USA, Britain and Germany? Anything else goes. So a British soldier from Rorke's Drift is out but a Zulu Warrior is in.

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