Getting decals to stick down?

[Neil.C]

I've just got back into the hobby after a very long lay off (40 odd years) and the only model I have made so far is an Airfix Spitfire 1A in 1/72. The only problem I have found is with the decals (what I used to call transfers!)

 

One of the large wing roundels has a bit of a crease in it and the large fuselage roundels haven't stuck down at the top.

 

I don't recall ever having this trouble in the past so possibly the decals are a bit old (purchased at a boot sale for 50p!) or something with modern decals I'm missing out on?

 

Any ideas?

[bentwaters81tfw]

There are several products to assist with decals. Humbrol decal coat 1 and 2, one is applied with a brush before the decal, and the second afterwards. They help to settle the decals as well. Mircoscale do similar (Micro Sol and Micro Set) Don't be alarmed when using them, as the decal can wrinkle up at first, but DO NOT TOUCH it, it will settle down to the contours.

It's important to decal onto a GLOSS surface, or you will get 'silvering' under the film. Again, if you have a matt finish, you can apply a layer of Lakeland Quickshine (from the shop of the same name*) as a clear gloss acrylic coat, then apply a matt finish if required afterwards.

 

*others will be along to give you alternative methods or products.

Old decals that don't want to stick can be applied on a wet coat of Quickshine, smoothed with a flat wet brush, and sealed when dry with a second coat.

Decal sheets that have gone brown can be bleached in sunlight for a couple of days, just tape them to a window.

[Army_Air_Force]

I'm guessing the problem is the little lump on the gun cover! On this Airfix spit, it took over a dozen applications of Microsol to gradually settle it down, with a little gentle persuasion with a brush when soft. You do need to be careful though, and when soft and wrinkled, the decals are also very fragile. As mentioned above, a smooth gloss surface will allow better adhesion and less chance of silvering under the clear decal film.

 

Some modern decal films do seem quite tough!

 

Edited December 14, 2017 by Army_Air_Force
spelling

[Uncle Pete]

If all else fails.... Duct tape! 

[FinnAndersen]

How long do you soak your transfers? If they are in the water for (too) long, then they loose some of the adhesive and you will have difficulty in getting a snug fit.

[Smithy]

What Bentwater and the others have said. A gloss finish prior to decalling is essential as it greatly decreases the chances of silvering, and a decal softening agent like Micro Sol is essential, well in my book anyway. If you're having trouble getting them to conform to lumps and bumps it can helpful to dot the decal with the tip of a new exacto blade before applying the decal softener.

 

Saying all of that, some manufacturers decals are downright awful and are a real battle to work with. I've found some Academy (1/72 Tempest anyone?) and virtually all Tamiya decals to be a challenge either in terms of getting them to properly bed down and/or in preventing silvering - even with a gloss finish.

 

Keep at it and don't despair modelling like most things has a learning curve and the more you do it the better you get, and also through trial and error find what techniques and products work best for you.

Edited December 14, 2017 by Smithy

[Troy Smith]

5 hours ago, Smithy said:

virtually all Tamiya decals to be a challenge either in terms of getting them to properly bed down and/or in preventing silvering - even with a gloss finish.

On 29/08/2016 at 23:26, Gary C said:

The best way to get all Japanese decals ( Fujimi, Hasegawa, Tamiya etc)to work as they're supposed to is use hot water and the correct setting solutions. You'll need a bottle each of Gunze Mr Setter and Mr Softer. Micro sol and others won't work as they're formulated differently. Do not use Gunze on Microscale or Cartograf decals as it will chew right through them.

Dip the decal in hot water, it doesn't need to be boiling but it does need to be fairly hot. The temperature of a drinkable tea will do. The glue is heat activated and is what makes up most of the thickness. If you dip it in cold water you'll spend the rest of the day waiting and cursing.

Lay down some Mr Setter, this is in the blue bottle. It acts as an additional glue. Slide the decal onto it and into postion and leave it alone. The decal should wrinkle a little.

Give it 10 mins or so and go over the decal with a brush with a little Mr Softer (green bottle) on it. Use sparingly as it is extremely hot. Too much and it will damage the paint, especially the weaker acrylics. The decal will now wrinkle a lot. Do not touch it as it is almost liquified at this point.

Once it is dry it will have smoothed out and will lay down beautifully over just about any raised or recessed detail you care to think of. Used properly it is probably the best conforming decal process in the industry. Used incorrectly and you'll be just another guy complaining about crap Japanese decals.

 

and,  here's another take on decals, using some PVA glue to bed them down

http://www.network54.com/Forum/149674/thread/1511881812/last-1512025021/(View+All+Messages+In+This+Thread

 

Note comments regarding 'gloss' vs  'smooth'  and points on different methods, and reasons for silvering. 

 

@Neil.C   as you can see you have various opinions, and reasons,  some  contradictory.   

 

As someone

9 hours ago, Neil.C said:

I've just got back into the hobby after a very long lay off (40 odd years)

so, that's 1977....

OK, there have been a lot of  changes,  one of the best is places like this,  which makes a usually solitary hobby into a group participation if you want (have a read of some of the work in progress threads for example, try ones with lots of posts to see what I mean, )

If you  like post a build up and ask for some constructive feedback,   the ethos here is a postive, friendly,  helpful,  you'd get comments on the good parts,  and ideas and suggestion for areas that have not  come out as well. 

Oh, and  also macro lenses are unforgiving .... 

 

In the decals case,   look through some ideas,  see what other builders have found with the decals  (eg contrast Smithys experience with Tamiya and Gary C suggestions)  and try a spare one on scrap to test.

And, they may just be  bit knackered from storage.

 

Oh, and Academy decals are  reputed to be crap whatever you do with them. (some recent kits I think now have Cartograf decals which are decent)

The other thing is now it's easy to research,   but as with anything on the net,  it's not just what's being said, but who is saying it.  Confused? Ask here,  but it's always worth saying what you have found and add in the links (like above)

Good questions tend  to get good answers,  showing you have had a look and are confused really helps,   and  there are plenty of 'lurkers'  who may not post or even be  members but could find the answers of  use.

 

And, try and see if there is a model club near to you (or ask here)  as thats another great way to learn,   and meet some likeminded folk.

It struck me recently this is one of the few places that people my knowledge in this area of interest rather than tedious....

 

HTH

cheers

T

[Smithy]

Thanks for the extra info Troy. I've built a few Tamiya kits since returning to the hobby in 2001 and in all honesty each one had decal issues. I learnt about the hot water technique with the first one after posting on a site (long since gone) which I was a member on and have used the Gunze decal products as well and whilst all of these help, I've yet to have an entire build go without at least one decal issue. I've also used PVA before with very difficult placements which does get them to stick but I've found you get a thickness to the decals afterwards (even if you thin the PVA with some water) so for me it's an absolute last resort. For me personally I much prefer European decals they bed down nicely for me using my techniques and I generally don't have to use anything more than a few applications of Sol. I've got a Tamiya build on the go now where I've used a combo of the kit, DK Decals and Carpena decals, and of course the Tamiya ones had a few issues in places but the DK and Carpena ones went on like dreams.

 

If you want really problematic decals Roden's first generation ones were nightmarish and had a tendency to shatter. I vividly remember having to reassemble the roundels for a 1/72 SE5a back in 2004, not fun and rather stressful. That's ancient history now, they rectified their decals a long time ago and I've found they are pretty good now.

Edited December 15, 2017 by Smithy
Dodgy spelling

[Neil.C]

Thanks for your informative post Troy. Its all a bit different from the past.

 

I've looked around the site and the level of build quality and paint finish is amazing,  really great just to browse through.

 

I doubt I will ever get to that level as I think I will just enjoy building straight out of the box but you never know.......

[Max Headroom]

I used Colorado transfers on my Mosquito. Nice looking on the sheet, they were horrid, refused to settle on anything other than a flat surface even after using setting solutions.

 

Here is the result on the starboard fuselage 

 

 

Brittle in the extreme.

 

Trevor

 

[Uncle Pete]

17 hours ago, Smithy said:

 

 

Saying all of that, some manufacturers decals are downright awful and are a real battle to work with.

Too right, Smithy... I blagged a Lindberg P51 for 99p (you get what you pay for!) and the decals were like half-inch plywood.

[Troy Smith]

1 hour ago, Neil.C said:

I've looked around the site and the level of build quality and paint finish is amazing,  really great just to browse through.

 

I doubt I will ever get to that level as I think I will just enjoy building straight out of the box but you never know.......

HI Neil

 

Your model, do as you please (unless it's Hurricane and I'll be on your case )  I have never seen anyone put down on here for  any work they have displayed,  sometimes flaws are pointed out, but then with suggestions on how to avoid the problem.

It's  a really supportive community.

Try doing a Work In Progress build of  a  kit,  you will be amazed at the interest and suggestions,and as you will  have  noticed, you fit the large part of the BM demographic already ...  a middle age returnee...

 

If you enjoy building OOB,  there are plenty of kits  that have everything IN the  box! 

I noticed you picked  up some retro kits in another post, 

22 hours ago, Neil.C said:

Revell FW190

 

Academy Grumman F4F

 

Novo Tempest.

 

ironically it's possible to get brand new all singing  and dancing kits for  not much more (or even the same price)  as retro items..(research)

@Mikemx  runs MJW Models and they usually have  items that have been listed in Creative Models specials,  so  bargains can be  had, for  example Eduard Weekend  kits

http://mjwmodels.co.uk/eduard-172--kits---weekend-556-c.asp

 

Note there are a Fw190 and Hellcat for £6 a go,  and these are new recent toolings.   The Weekend don't have etch and masks and multiple decal options,   but are the  same  basic  plastic.

A word of caution on  new tool kits (in particular Airfix it  seems) the  tolerances are extremely tight, enough  a layer of paint can throw off a joint, and I've seen a fair  few  complaints about this. 

 

Again, research, you can usually find a build somewhere.

Hint, the site search wasn't very good (may have got betternow)  but if  you add  'Britmodeller' into  a google search term it  works well.

 

Oh, and the most useful items I have got since returning to badgering  plastic,  superglue, I just buy the mini tubes from a  pound  shop, and multi-grade nail buffers,  again, can be got cheap.

Superglue can be used for assembly,  or  mix with talc  to make a fast filler for small joints, or  even used neat,  but don'tlet it  harden too long as then it gets harder than the plastic.

 

And, a final word  of caution,  this place  can be addictive,  it's easy to  find yourself checking in all the time and seeing whats up,  you soon work out who the old lags are and their foibles..  You have been warned!

 

cheers

T

 

 

 

 

[Neil.C]

^^^^

 

Thanks  for the tips T.

 

Looked in on the MJW site.

I'd never heard of Eduard but they do sound the business. I've got plenty of models to be going on with at the moment as my Mrs has just come back from Aldi with an Airfix Cromwell Tank and ME109   @£4.99 each but I shall be looking at the Eduard stuff (the Pro looks appealing) whenever I finish this lot.  

[Max Headroom]

I love those Airfix starter sets and they are responsible for rebooting my modelling mojo this year. 

 

Here is my 109 using the potlets of paint and the kit markings (I had to add the swastika from the spares box)

 

 

I even used the brush. I didn’t use the tube glue though.

 

I can echo Troy’s comments above it is a friendly website and expertise is given freely (Troy is too modest to admit it but he is our ‘go to guy’ for all things Hurricane around here!).

 

Oh aye it is addictive too.

 

Trevor

 

 

[Neil.C]

Wow Trevor, that 109 is brilliant!

If mine comes out half as good I will be happy.

 

 

Spoiler

 

 

[Graham Boak]

One point about using Microset if your transfers haven't stuck, or silvered.  Use a needle or other sharp point to gentleman's parts small holes all over the surface, then flood the Microset over the transfer and it can get at the underside to "suck it down".  I remember using a pricker (that's what it was called) from a set of drawing instruments, which gives you some idea how long these solvents have been around - certainly more than 40 years.  There are many more options around now, but the basics haven't changed since then.

[Max Headroom]

gentleman's 

 

that’s the best nonsensical bit of censoring I’ve seen. 

 

Insert the word ‘incise’ and it will make sense.......

 

Trevor

[Graham Boak]

Yes, I didn't notice that when I posted it.  Pierce will do.  Or create, if that isn't too close to the censored term.  The tool mentioned was used to create copies of drawings by overlaying a transparent sheet (as all originals were) and piercing a series of holes to provide a guide for further work: I suspect it was my father's and he passed on.  But it served well enough to defeat the silvering on my F-82.

[Smithy]

It did the same thing with my post above and I had to replace the offending "p" word with "dot", "it can helpful to dot the decal with the tip of a new exacto blade"!

[dfqweofekwpeweiop4]

5 hours ago, Neil.C said:

^^^^

 

Thanks  for the tips T.

 

Looked in on the MJW site.

I'd never heard of Eduard but they do sound the business. I've got plenty of models to be going on with at the moment as my Mrs has just come back from Aldi with an Airfix Cromwell Tank and ME109   @£4.99 each but I shall be looking at the Eduard stuff (the Pro looks appealing) whenever I finish this lot.  

 

If you want to try an Eduard kit, try one of the 1/72 Weekend Hellcats and see how you get on. They're the best Hellcat kit in 1/72, especially as they're quite cheap too.

 

thanks

Mike

[Neil.C]

^^

Cheers Mike, sounds like a plan(e).

 

Neil.

[Uncle Pete]

On 12/15/2017 at 5:47 PM, Graham Boak said:

gentleman's parts

LOL... That one took a minute!