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MTO B-25J Colour question


Michael51

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1NnzQ5l.jpg

 

Having acquired the 'Silver Wing' version of Hasegawa's 1/72 B-25J Mitchell, I noticed in my references that the cobalt blue rudder colour was generally considered to be used solely by the 319th BG. The kit instructions state that the aircraft illustration on the box is a 340th BG aeroplane. Only one work, the Osprey book on B-25s in the MTO, has a piece of colour artwork of a 340th machine with cobalt blue rudders and that happens to be the same aeroplane that is on the box.

 

Has Hasegawa erred or was this cobalt blue colour used by the 340th as well?

 

 

Michael

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Yes, you may well be right. 

 

I have quite a few books on the B-25 and only the Osprey one has the cobalt blue on a 340th machine.

 

But how did such a striking NMF machine with cobalt blue rudders come to the attention of Hasegawa and The Osprey authour when long searches on the interweb reveal no such image?

 

Your suggestion would resonate with the arrival of the 319th late in the War and the apparent return to NMF finishes by that time.

 

Michael

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When the 319th BG (who used the Blue tails) returned to the USA in late 1944 (or there abouts) to convert to the A-26 and later transfer to the P.T.O, their B-25 airframes were left behind and distributed throughout the other 12th Air Force Mitchell units as replacements.

 

The Blue tails were usually stripped of paint when that happened but not in all cases.

 

In this case the 340th BG clearly just changed the tail codes and left it Blue. I have the photo of it as attached (came from the Net somewhere). Judge for yourself whether it is Cobalt Blue tail or not.

 

24176980847_103d6d5ef0_b.jpg

 

Airframe Details -  340TH BG 489TH BS – SN 43-27934 -  9 Q  'LADY ELAINE'

 

Steve Mackenzie

 

 

Edited by Hornet133
to insert photo etc
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Steve,

 

Well, that makes sense of the whole matter, unless of course that blue is actually OD; but somehow I do not think so. It looks too dark to be anything but blue to me.

 

The War diaries of the 319th BG confirm your dates:

 

http://57thbombwing.com/319th_History/319th_History.html

 

 

Thank you for your post and the excellent picture. I will have to look for that.

 

Michael

 

 

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Micheal,

 

To get the picture, right click on it and click on 'Save image' on the menu that comes up.  That will save it to the folder that your downloads go to.

 

B-25s and B-26s are 2 of my interests and I have LOTS of stuff collected from all over the place.

 

Steve

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Steve,

 

Thanks for the advice. My previous comment was a bit misleading. By '...look for that' , I was referring to the source of the photograph. Now, if you could remember where you located it.........

 

I have spent a couple of hours searching for the source of that image and got nowhere.

 

Michael

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Micheal,

 

It was on one of the many different Facebook sites but I could not tell you which one.

 

If you are wondering about copyright, from the markings on the bottom of neg/ image, One can tell that it was an official USAAF photo and thus in the public domain.

 

Steve

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seen this?

B-25%20North%20American%20Mitchell%20Cam

 

scans here

http://www.boxartden.com/gallery/index.php/Profiles/Camoflage-Markings/22-NAA-B-25-Mitchell

 

On 14/12/2017 at 00:48, Hornet133 said:

When the 319th BG (who used the Blue tails)

 

 

see end of this page onto next

B-25%20North%20American%20Mitchell%20Cam

 

 

B-25%20North%20American%20Mitchell%20Cam

 

 

This is pretty old, and I don't have my USAAF ETO-MTO 1942-45 Camo Markinsg book to check,   but the author @Dana Bell   is a member here and would be the chap to ask.

 

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Hi Troy,

 

Your byline is 'Remember ..never trust a profile without a photo'  and I fully agree.

But you should add to that 'Never trust a 46 year old reference without checking more recent research' .....

 

The Ducimus book, written by Roger Freeman according to online info (not Dana Bell) was published in 1971.  Ken Rust's 'Twelth Air Force Story' was published 1975.   Both of those say the 319th B-25 tails were Black.

 

But all the more recent sources I just checked say Cobalt Blue. They are -

 

'The Big Tailed Birds - Story of the 319th Bomb Group in World War II' by Vic Tannehill P.73 (top caption)

'B-25 Mitchell in combat over Europe (MTO)' - Marek Katarzynski (Kagero 19006) P.59 & P.71

'Air Force Colours Vol 2 - ETO & MTO 1942-45' Dana Bell (Squadron-Signal 6151) P.55

 

So one therefore says which is correct ??  The only colour photo that I turned up showing the tail of a 319th Bomb Group B-25 is on P.71 of the Kagero book listed above. There the tail looks a Dark Blue and different to the Black of the serial number which is painted around and left in a Nat Metal box.

 

Another incorrect thing said in the Ducimus book is that the 319th Bomb Group was returned to the USA (Z.I) in Feb 1945.   According to Vic Tannehill that is misleading. Their last B-25 mission in Italy was on 31/12/1944. They were on a boat trip back home in Jan 1945, and reconvened in Feb 1945 in the Z.I for retraining on the new A-26s.

 

The above is not intended as a slight on Troy but to add more info to those interested in the subject.

 

Steve Mackenzie

 

 

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On 15/12/2017 at 13:02, Troy Smith said:

seen this?

 

 

scans here

http://www.boxartden.com/gallery/index.php/Profiles/Camoflage-Markings/22-NAA-B-25-Mitchell

 

 

 

see end of this page onto next

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is pretty old, and I don't have my USAAF ETO-MTO 1942-45 Camo Markinsg book to check,   but the author @Dana Bell   is a member here and would be the chap to ask.

 

No, I have not seen this reference until now and thank you

 

Michael

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When the question of the 319th's tail colors came up many years ago, I asked Esther Oyster, a historian with the 319th's reunion association.  Esther found no one who remembered black or white, but she did produced a beautiful color shot of one 319th B-25 with the cobalt blue tail.  (Wish I still had a copy of THAT one!)  The 319th certainly began repainting the tails of their A-26s in the Pacific, using the same blue.

 

That didn't mean Roger was wrong in the C&M title - over the years, he has been proven right far more often than not!  While the reunion group didn't remember the black, they didn't remember the white either.  USAF photo 113601ac shows an OD 319th B-25J (43-3636, #67) over Vesuvius with a white-painted vertical tail.

 

As for the transfer of a blue-tailed 319th Mitchell to the 340th, it certainly makes sense.  The only question is: where did the 340th get the paint to over the old 319th battle numbers?

 

Cheers,

 

 

 

Dana

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On 15/12/2017 at 1:02 PM, Troy Smith said:

 

Dana,

 

Thank you for your comprehensive reply.

 

That Cobalt blue, for want of a better description, looks awfully similar to the blue used as a background to the lightning flash tails of the 79th FG P-47s, which I believe were based on Corsica at the same time as the 57th BW b-25s. Maybe it is common paint stock from some as yet undisclosed source?

 

Michael

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Thanks for posting. I have seen this photograph in a couple of publications but this is the best reproduction.

 

This 'is it OD or is it blue?' matter has got my attention, a bit like that rhyme about the man who wasn't there, I'm afraid to say.

 

There is a gap in the literature on the MTO and that gap is more pronounced with the 57th BW b-25Js. Another Hasegawa boxing, 00546, has 'Briefing Time' with OD rudders.

 

I am going to assume this is a photograph taken late in or around April 1945 when the 340th BG had moved from Corsica to the mainland at Rimini.

 

That would explain the blue fins (indicating it might have been a surplus 319th BG aircraft), the NMF (consistent with later replacements to all 57th BW groups) and what looks to be more substantial background architecture on the field than would appear to be the case for Alesan airfield.

 

Noticeable is the white at the rear of the engine pods, the chromate application and the absence of a nose gun. Perhaps it was a lead aircraft, fitted with a Norden bombsight. Perhaps that explains the unusual paint scheme. Perhaps I am reading to much into this.

 

Michael

Edited by Michael51
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17 hours ago, occa said:

There was a colour photo of 6V coded in overall NM on the now defunct Jeffrey J Ethell archive, it clearly has a cobalt blue rudder.

 

Edit:

Here it is:

 

 

usual caveats re WW2 color....but is that fin blue?

 

  note, it's darker than the insignia blue,  which is a dark blue,  is this weathered black fin?

 

also re 'cobalt blue'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobalt_blue

330px-Cobalt_Blue.JPG

 

which should show as a lighter blue than Insignia Blue,  and in the pic above it's not.

 

IF it is a blue fin,  then I'd suggest use of fresh Insignia Blue,  which would appear darker than faded fuselage star, and is a standard paint.

On 21/12/2017 at 05:11, Dana Bell said:

Esther found no one who remembered black or white, but she did produced a beautiful color shot of one 319th B-25 with the cobalt blue tail.  (Wish I still had a copy of THAT one!) 

Dana,  is the above a different picture?

 

 

 

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Wouldn't the actual paint appear darker than just the pigments ?

Also IMO the insignia blue of 6V is of the lighter early war paint often used in the med and desert.

But may it was of a different blue indeed ... I think it IS a blue and certainly not OD.

 

Here's another (supposedly) cobalt blue cowling this time from an A(B)-26:

ODWKN6x.jpg

 

http://www.ww2color.com/search/webapps/slides/slides.php?db_limit_start=0

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On 12/21/2017 at 2:18 AM, Michael51 said:

Dana,

 

Thank you for your comprehensive reply.

 

That Cobalt blue, for want of a better description, looks awfully similar to the blue used as a background to the lightning flash tails of the 79th FG P-47s, which I believe were based on Corsica at the same time as the 57th BW b-25s. Maybe it is common paint stock from some as yet undisclosed source?

 

Michael

 

You mean like here in the background ?

jifa8oa.jpg

 

Link added:

http://www.ww2color.com/search/webapps/slides/slides.php?db_limit_start=0

That could really be cobalt blue

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4 hours ago, Michael51 said:

Hi occa, 

 

Yes, just like that. I would, for want of a better term, call that 'Cobalt Blue".

 

Would you please let me know the source of that remarkable image?

 

Michael

Hi Michael,

 

Sorry I forgot the link, it's from here:

http://www.ww2color.com/search/webapps/slides/slides.php

Unfortunately (for me at least) the search doesn't work anymore.

You have to click through the whole collection to find things I am afraid.

 

Edit:

Here's it, slide #11440

http://www.ww2color.com/search/webapps/slides/slides.php?action=update&primary_key=11440

 

 

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23 hours ago, occa said:

There was a colour photo of 6V coded in overall NM on the now defunct Jeffrey J Ethell archive, it clearly has a cobalt blue rudder.

 

Interesting picture, Occa.

I always thought this aircraft had olive drab rudders (as suggested in the Hasegawa kit that contains exactly these markings).

At least that's how I painted mine, many moons ago.

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6 minutes ago, Roman Schilhart said:

Interesting picture, Occa.

I always thought this aircraft had olive drab rudders (as suggested in the Hasegawa kit that contains exactly these markings).

At least that's how I painted mine, many moons ago.

Hi Roman,

 

Do  you mean another boxing maybe ?

I think the OP talks about this which has a blue tail on the cover:

https://www.scalemates.com/kits/166275-hasegawa-00781-b-25j-mitchell-silver-wing

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