Uncle Pete Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 Looking ahead in the stash (a stash of one, by the way), when I get done fighting the best of three falls on my Blenheim, I'll be starting on a Mossie Mk18 in Leonard Cheshire's 617 livery. The kit comes with two nose options, one regular and one glass like a Dornier or Blenheim. The only picture I can find that is definitely Lenny's kite (KC W) is a dead on profile and, of course, the Mossie's spinners obscure the nose. Anybody know which sharp end he would have used. (I'm hoping it's the solid one... The glass nose requires surgery). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 If it's this pic here: Isn't that the straight line of the nose glazing under the spinner? Found a larger one: 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Pete Posted December 13, 2017 Author Share Posted December 13, 2017 Good catch, Mike... I hadn't spotted that. Thanks.... You're now on my "I owe you a pint" list! And I guess I'm stuck with the surgery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 I have my uses occasionally 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbob Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 Of course, it also has the flat-front "fighter" canopy, so... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 If it was a Mk.XVIII then it had the fighter nose. However the serial belongs to a Mk.XVI, which had the bomber nose. And not the fighter canopy (thank you Bob). Go with the bulged bomb bay, though. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 1 hour ago, Uncle Pete said: Mossie Mk18 ? A Mosquito Mk.XVIII (not Mk 18, that is post war ) quick google would have shown this is "Tse Tse" with a 57mm cannon... So, you mean a Mk.XVI, which would automatically mean a bomber or PR version with a glazed nose. As Cheshire used this for precise target marking, that should have ruled out a fighter version. I mention this as a quick google would have showed this up. I'm not trying to belittle you, more suggesting that a little research may have given the answers you require. And, as if to prove my point, what happened when I google it up (hence the strike though, as I would have assumed a bomber, though thay had some as well) http://ww2f.com/threads/pics-617-squadrons-mystery-mosquitoes.17550/ Quote Commanding the legendary 617 'Dambuster' Squadron in early 1944, Leonard Cheshire had the idea of using a Mosquito to mark targets at very low level. After trying out a Nightfighter at RAF Coleby Grange ( not far from 617s home at Woodhall Spa ) Cheshire flew the first such operation on April 5th, 1944. Four crews were specially trained and Mosquitoes were used very successfully until 3rd October 1944, after which time all low-level marking for 5 Group was done by 627 Squadron ( although 617 still used a P-51 Mustang on occasion ).617's Mossies have subsequently become near-mythical - it isn't known what, if any, markings they carried as photos are virtually non-existent, and Squadron record-keeping was erratic. Mosquito FB.VIs were issued to 617 Squadron - NT202 and NT205. This next, rare, snapshot MAY be the other one ; it shows three NCO's of 627 Squadron ( who shared Woodhall Spa with 617 ) in front of 'Leonard Cheshire's Mosquito' : - In addition to these two Mosquitoes, 617 are believed to have used B.IVs DZ415,DZ418 and DZ421 ( all of which were 'borrowed' from 627 ) and B.XVI ML976 ( listed as belonging to 109/571 Squadrons ). As you can see in the photos, no codes or serial numbers can be seen. The profile Mike posted is ML976, but is shown with 617 codes, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_RAF_squadron_codes but it's listed as belonging to 109/571. This makes me wonder what the profile was based upon as...."you can't trust a profile without a photo" so, whole thing is clear as mud then... , also, what base kit and scale? From memory the only Mosquito kits with optional fighter and bomber nose parts are the Matchbox kit in 72nd http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/37030-matchbox-172-mosquito-accuracy/ which has the correct two stage engines, and the 1/48th Monogram kit, which doesn't. The Matchbox kit does seem to build up well https://modelingmadness.com/scott/allies/gb/1-72/mbxmossie.htm As an aside on a visit to the Avaition Bookshop one time they had a couple veterans, one chap had been with the Light Night Striking Force, and chatting briefly he said he'd flown Mosquito Mk.VI, which I though was odd at the time, as the Mk.VI is a fighter-bomber-intruder, and the LNSF were dropping cookies, which needed a Mk.XVI with a bulged bomb bay.... I should have asked more, but it is a difficult environment to strike up a decent conversation, I can see how the mistake could happen, (six, sixteen) and as with any veterans I'm not about to be a smart alec, they actually flew the damn things and it was a long time ago.... So....in conclusion you could do a 617 sq as a fighter or bomber version it seems..... HTH T 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beard Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 (edited) One of the members here has 'never trust a profile without a photo' in his signature, I think this is the case here. As Graham says, the serial belongs to a MkXVI (I very much doubt it's a MkXVIII, that was the Coastal Command version with a 6-pounder gun, so, if it's a fighter, it's likely to be a MkVI). Unsurprisingly, there's a thread about 617 Mosquitos on BM here: Edit: I see the member I mentioned has posted while I was writing my post. Edited December 13, 2017 by Beard 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 Hmm. There are lies, damn lies and artwork: I would be reassured to see a photo of ML976 as KC-W. Written in some haste: Cheshire used Mosquitoes for about 3 months. His first (and the squadron's) first operational use was on 5/4/44 but from 25/6/44 to the end of his tour he migrated onto normally flying Mustang HB837 (though others in the squadron still used Mosquitoes). The first 2 Mosquitoes (ML975 and ML976) were Mosquito B.XVIs on loan from 109 Squadron (the A-B serial book does not actually list any 617 Sq service for either aircraft) and I haven't seen evidence yet that either bore 617 Sq codes (which is not to say it's not there). For sorties between 8/6/44 (Saumur Tunnel) and 24/6/44 (Wizernes) Cheshire regularly flew NT202, which was a Mosquito VI. The Red Kite book Dambusters by Chris Ward and Andy Lee has an appendix listing serials and codes for aircraft known to have served with 617 Sq. For ML975 it lists only code HS-M and for ML976 HS-N and HS-L. For NT202 it lists the 617 Sq code AJ-N. Other Mosquito VIs used by 617 Sq were NS992 AJ-N/S, NS993 AJ-N/L and NT205 AJ-L. It also used a host of DZ-serialled Mosquito IVs and one Mosquito B.XX (KB215), all borrowed as required from 627 Sq and listed as retaining AZ codes. So you can do either a bomber B.XVI or a fighter FB.VI as a Cheshire 617 Mosquito and FB.VI NT202 looks the best bet for such an aircraft actually bearing 617 Sq markings. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Roberts Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 A quick google search suggests Cheshires logbook (or a copy) is still about, so may be a guide to what he flew, when? PR 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Pete Posted December 14, 2017 Author Share Posted December 14, 2017 Blimey, lads, it's like the old Chinese proverb... "Be careful what you wish for... You might get it." Thanks for all the tips... My googling abilities are a bit on the thin side that's why I ask questions here. (Well... That and the fact I'd rather converse with a human than a machine, albeit via a machine). Googling various combinations of Cheshire, Mosquito, 617, Squadron Markings, and a few other keywords didn't turn up anything I could figure out anyway. If so many guys who know the material as well as you lads do can be somewhat unsure, I guess I can be a bit cavalier with the look (and, perhaps, go with simpler options more suited to my skills or the lack thereof). My list of "guys to whom I owe a pint" is growing daily! Thanks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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