Early B-17 internal colours

[Chris Jephcott]

Good evening everybody, 

 

I’m wondering If anybody in this forum might possibly be able to advise me? 

 

Currently having gone through a lull, I’m now in the middle of a mono rush. It won’t be too long lived as I start my new job next Wednesday (changing to a freight dog on the 757!). 

 

Anyway, I digress. My question relates to the internal colours of the early B-17 models (B-D). I’ve found a resource which claims the inside of the rear fuselage was the infamous zinc chromate yellow primer, with the cockpit, radio and nose compartments being bronze green and the bomb bay being natural metal?

 

I was wondering if anybody might be able to  either prove, or indeed, disprove this? I have seen a single photo somewhere that seems to back up the later model statements: green in nose, cockpit and radio, natural metal in other areas, but was the yellow zinc chromate ever left uncovered in any location on the aircraft? 

 

Would anybody be be able to advise?

 

Thank you very much,

 

Chris

 

 

[JosephLalor]

Martin Waligorksi's article on the IPMS Stockholm site shows a B-17 rear fuselage interior with natural metal skin and zinc chromate primer on the stringers.

Edited December 12, 2017 by JosephLalor

[Chris Jephcott]

Hi Joesph, i’ll Have a look into that. Thank you very much - I think that might be where I got my initial reference from in the first place, but I’ll have a read.

 

Given the size and the scale of the early b-17 windows in the academy kit, it might be that the zinc chromate details might get missed off, but we’ll see. 

 

Thank you very much

 

Chris

[Finn]

In b&w but some internal pics here:

 

http://images.google.com/hosted/life/ee969a39f5d207de.html

 

click under Related Images for more.

 

Jari

[e8n2]

On page 94 of Dana Bell's Air Force Colors Volume 3, there is another photo of a B-17E.  The caption reads "The waist gun position on a B-17E.  Interior skin, ribs, and stringers are zinc chromate (yellow).  The interior of the sliding hatch is unpainted.  (Color identifications for these photos come from wartime Kodachromes.)  There could always be variations between different factories.  Maybe Dana will be along to add any information he might have since the book was originally published.

Later,

Dave

[Troy Smith]

7 hours ago, e8n2 said:

On page 94 of Dana Bell's Air Force Colors Volume 3, there is another photo of a B-17E.  The caption reads "The waist gun position on a B-17E.  Interior skin, ribs, and stringers are zinc chromate (yellow).  The interior of the sliding hatch is unpainted.  (Color identifications for these photos come from wartime Kodachromes.)  There could always be variations between different factories.  Maybe Dana will be along to add any information he might have since the book was originally published.

Later,

Dave

Dana is a member, if you use the @ symbol  then that person will get a notification that they were mentioned, like this @Dana Bell

 

HTH

T

[Junchan]

Here are color photos of the early B-17 interior, the first photo is of a B-17C which looks silver painted and the second one is a B-17E during assembly which looks natural metal with green sitringers.

 

I don't have the E&M Handbook for the D or E model, but the E&M Handbook for F model specified the interior colors as follows.

(i) FINISH FOR INTERIOR PARTS AND SURFACCES.

1. The interior surfaces of the wings, stabilizer, fin, nacelles, body, those surfaces of the body behind the soundproofing, and control surfaces, shall not be painted regardless of the material used, except as follows:

a. The interior exposed metal surfaces in the control cabin shall be finished with one coat of primer and one coat of dark green lacquer, (duPont No. 258-38154, or Berry Bros. Berryloid Bronze Green Lacquer No. 234G9 or equivalent), applied after installation.

For more information, refer to the scan of the relevant pages from the Handbook below.

 

Jun in Tokyo

https://www.flickr.com/photos/horaburo/albums

[Army_Air_Force]

This picture is probably as good as any to show the Dull Dark Green painted on exposed metal surfaces in the cockpit and nose.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5a/B-17_Flying_Fortress_Cockpit.jpg

[Chris Jephcott]

That is brilliant guys. Thank you very much. Answers everything brilliantly. Great photo Junchan... exactly what I was after. 

 

So bronze green flight deck and nose/radio compartment, metal in rear fuselage seems to be the answer.

 

Really appreciate the answers, thank you very much! 

[tomprobert]

The nose and radio rooms were not painted - they were left in natural metal. Early models (up to mid-batch Fs) had an olive green sound proofing fitted to the side walls of the radio room and nose, but this was often moved in theatre.  

 

Bomb bay and rear fuselage were natural metal, with only exposed metal on the flightdeck being painted dark dull green. Sound proofing was also fitted to the cockpit sidewalls and was olive green. 

[Troy Smith]

On 12/12/2017 at 16:43, Chris Jephcott said:

My question relates to the internal colours of the early B-17 models (B-D).

 

4 hours ago, Junchan said:

Here are color photos of the early B-17 interior, the first photo is of a B-17C which looks silver painted and the second one is a B-17E during assembly which looks natural metal with green sitringers.

 

 

1 hour ago, tomprobert said:

Bomb bay and rear fuselage were natural metal,

the image @Junchan  posted looks like painted metal,  and that is a B-17C.

 

The details you post match the specification Junchan post as well,  but the OP question was on the early models,  and these were built pre-war,  so with  expected longer span,  and the B-17C pic above suggest silver laquer,  as greater corrosion control was specified?

hopefully @Dana Bell  will add in,   it maybe worth investigating pre-war paint standards for the answer.

[Chris Jephcott]

3 hours ago, tomprobert said:

The nose and radio rooms were not painted - they were left in natural metal. Early models (up to mid-batch Fs) had an olive green sound proofing fitted to the side walls of the radio room and nose, but this was often moved in theatre.  

 

Bomb bay and rear fuselage were natural metal, with only exposed metal on the flightdeck being painted dark dull green. Sound proofing was also fitted to the cockpit sidewalls and was olive green. 

 

Thanks Tom, I believed that the Bombardiers compartment was also alleged to have been a control zone too - although I was backing this up from photos in Black and White of an early B-17 model - whether it was a B,C or indeed D, I have no idea. What I could genuinely say was that the photo quality wasn't too great, and relied heavily on interpretation - hence the assumption that I had come up with.

 

 

Could this be the soundproofing? Also the photo sites this is from a B-17E. Which in my honest, and humble opinion, it is not. It could have been from a prototype E maybe? But my suspicion is this is more likely to be a B-D model?

 

Thoughts?

[e8n2]

I am working on an Academy B-17E right now, and based on the photo above, it is an E.  This was an official photograph, possibly taken before delivery of the aircraft pictured.  The lay out of the windows are what is on the nose section of the kit.  It does make me feel better seeing this photo as I figured that the crew in the bombardier's position would be sitting on nothing much more than stools fixed to the airframe.  I have the rear of my aircraft done in zinc chromate yellow as per Dana Bell's book.  To each their own!

Later,

Dave

[tomprobert]

The picture above is indeed the canvas covered sound proofing I was referring to - this could be a pre-war aircraft as much of the padding etc was removed once in theatre. The armour plated bombardier seat was replaced with the more common swivel chair in later batches and models. 

 

The colour photo of the rear fuselage, in my opinion, is unlikely to be lacquered - it's just dark in there. Having read B-17 production notes, I've not come across any mention of lacquer bing used, neither have I ever seen a period picture of yellow zinc chromate being used - but that's not to say it didn't happen!

 

I visited Dayton a couple of years ago and had a good look over 'The Swoose' which is a C/D hybrid and there certainly was no paint at all on the interior of the fuselage - it's all aluminium and was in original condition. 

[bentwaters81tfw]

Try these.

[Steve N]

I took those photos.  That's B-17E "My Gal Sal," now hanging in the National WWII Museum in New Orleans.  When I took the photos in 2005, the plane was owned by the late Bob Ready, who had the plane recovered from Greenland and restored.  Mr. Ready was  waiting to assemble the aircraft until the completion of a planned museum.  Unfortunately those plans fell through, so Mr. Ready sold the plane to the museum in New orleans.

 

As for the interior colors and fittings, I'm told their very accurate,  with one major exception. The cockpit area should be mostly bare metal.  When originally built, most of the cockpit and nose interior was covered with the same olive green padding seen in the radio room.  Only those areas not covered with padding (window frames and such) were painted.  Also, the camera flash made the Dull Dark Green look much brighter than it is in real life.  The actual color is quite dark.

 

Cheers!

 

Steve

[Steve N]

On 12/13/2017 at 11:59 AM, Junchan said:

Here are color photos of the early B-17 interior, the first photo is of a B-17C which looks silver painted and the second one is a B-17E during assembly which looks natural metal with green sitringers.

 

That's actually a B-17B.  The B-models had the bulged, teardrop waist gun blisters with ring mounted guns, which were replaced with flush windows and post mounts on the B-17C/D.

 

SN

[e8n2]

When I was stationed at Beale AFB in the mid 80s, the museum had a rather decrepit looking B-17, probably either an F or G without the chin turret.  As a volunteer at the museum I was able to go up inside it a few times.  Maybe the brain cells ain't working as good as they once were, but it seemed that basically the whole interior was chromate yellow.  Several years after I left the museum was shut down and the collection dispersed.  I have no idea where all the aircraft ended up at.

Later,

Dave

[bentwaters81tfw]

5 hours ago, Steve N said:

I took those photos.  That's B-17E "My Gal Sal," now hanging in the National WWII Museum in New Orleans.  When I took the photos in 2005, the plane was owned by the late Bob Ready, who had the plane recovered from Greenland and restored.  Mr. Ready was  waiting to assemble the aircraft until the completion of a planned museum.  Unfortunately those plans fell through, so Mr. Ready sold the plane to the museum in New orleans.

 

As for the interior colors and fittings, I'm told their very accurate,  with one major exception. The cockpit area should be mostly bare metal.  When originally built, most of the cockpit and nose interior was covered with the same olive green padding seen in the radio room.  Only those areas not covered with padding (window frames and such) were painted.  Also, the camera flash made the Dull Dark Green look much brighter than it is in real life.  The actual color is quite dark.

 

Cheers!

 

Steve

Excellent work Steve. I didn't know who to attribute them to.