Artie Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 Evening all...!!!! I'm trying to "rescue" an old Monogram Albaross from the shelf of doom, and would like to "rebuild" it using the RVHP resin conversión, but haven't been able to find any useful info about the colours. The spanish Grummans (as they were called here) were ex-norwegian machines, if that's of any help... Wich colours would you say are these...??? On the other hand, I'd like to replace the kit original wheels...any idea about any set of suitable wheels...???TIA and best regards.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huvut76g7gbbui7 Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 Somewhere in BM there is an article on the Norwegian machines (and also one in WIP) but I couldn't find it after a quick look. 6 of the Norwegian machines went to Spain (the rest to Greece) Spain already had the Albatross but not sure which vari I seem to remember that they were Seaplane grey on top and white underneath. That Spanish one has a higher demarcation line than the Norwegian Sorry not a precise answer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artie Posted December 12, 2017 Author Share Posted December 12, 2017 Hi, Scimitar..In fact, Spain operated both the -A and -B models in SAR duties, deployed at Pollensa air base (Majorca), and Gando air base (Gran Canaria). We also operated the ASW versión from Jerez. Wich color would you think to be right as a good Seaplane grey match...???? The White undersurfaces seemed to turn to a much off White, or even beige color with the extreme use and abuse.... Cheers from Tenerife...!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camper1 Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 (edited) I saw several of the Norwegian ones at Prestwick in the 60s and would agree with Scimitar that they were a dark grey, if I remember correctly the grey extended to the bottom of the fuselage and only the underside were white including the floats. A quick Google search found several photo's showing the demarcation line on the fuselage on abpic Cheers Ian Edited December 12, 2017 by camper1 correction Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corsairfoxfouruncle Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 Im no expert but my two cents says that grey is probably Dark gull grey or maybe dark ghost grey ? It reminds me of the WW2 US Navy Atlantic Patrol scheme. Coming from Grumman it makes sense to my eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 As I understand it, Seaplane Grey is/was a dark grey. Was it just Engine Grey under a different name? In which case you are looking for something like the British Extra Dark Sea Grey. The Spanish example in the photo looks much more like one of the USN Gull Greys, as was standard on USN aircraft for many years after the period of Engine Grey/Seaplane Grey. FS36440? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artie Posted December 13, 2017 Author Share Posted December 13, 2017 Thank you for your input, Sirs.......A visit to my LHS this very evening is going to be mandatory.....I'll look for a suitable gull grey, it makes sense, given the origins of the real machines....Spain used several HU-16B ASW, both from US origins, with the -82 engines, and from norwegian origin, with the less powered engines. The one I'm planning to build is one of the second group, registered "221 o 9". The decals supplied with the RVHP conversión set are completely wrong......The fuselaje numbers come in yellow color, the House of Bourbon cocardes are the wrong size, and the "warning, propeller" red stripes are written in english, when they shuold be written in spanish. Just the tail codes are of any use.... Best regards from a rainy Tenerife..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giorgio N Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 The postwar colour known as Seaplane Grey is FS 26081, a very dark grey, definitely not the colour we see here (but the right colour for the Norwegian scheme) This is a tricky one... checking this and other pictures the grey looks bluer and slightly darker than dark gull grey. Looks darker and bluer than 36440. Can't be dark ghost grey as this colour had not been introduced yet but at the same time it has the same blue tinge... Wonder if this was actually a Spanish colour rather than a US one ? Or maybe a RAL or BS colour ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalea Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 Being in possession of the RVHP conversion (as well as the requisite Monogram Albatross), I'm interested too. Seaplane Grey is, as already said, 1,2or 3 -6081. Yes, it doesn't look like the grey in the photo. Why not Light Gull Grey over Insignia White? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artie Posted December 13, 2017 Author Share Posted December 13, 2017 Hi, Giorgio....I've thought about that option too, but it would be strange, given the fact that no other spanish airplane ever wore that grey colour. Both the air force and the navy used a local colour locally known as "gris ratón" (mouse grey) or "gris barracón" (barrack grey), but it was much darker and greener tan this one.... Just an historic tale: when the CASA 2111 "Pedros" were lent to film the famous "Battle of Britain" movie, they were repainted to simulate German bombers. When they were returned back to Gando air Base, the order was given to add a third color, trying to give them back the previous three coloured camouflage scheme. They had to add a grey color to the "German" scheme, so then, as bold as you like, they borrowed some enamel paints from the navy yards, and gave a third color to the Pedros....for some time, the planes flew with an "interesting but unofficial" to say the least, colour scheme......things have always worked that way here in Spain.... Something similar happened with the Hispano Aviación HA 1112 Buchón.....the tale says that the Commanding Officer of Ala de Caza nº 7 was so fond on his car's colour, that he ordered to overspray the planes with the so called "Peugeot Blue", an automotive Paint supplied by a local Peugeot dealer from Sevilla. I really think that's just an urban legend, a fake tale to be honest.... Cheers....!!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camper1 Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 I have 3 books on the Albatross and none give a definitive answer, the Schiffer book just says aircraft grey. I don't recall the ones I saw being as dark as the Neptunes or WV2s that used to visit Prestwick,my guess would be around Dark Sea Grey or pretty close to it, only an opinion. Cheers Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giorgio N Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 Fascinating stories Artie, thanks for sharing ! If no such colour was around in Spain, it may interesting tracing the story of these aircrafts. Were they returned to the US before going to Spain ? In this case the grey is very likely an American paint with either light (36440) or dark (36231) gull grey as serious possibilities... ligth gull grey would have been the standard USN scheme for carrier based ASW aircrafts, as the USN though never used the Albatross for ASW work they didn't have a specific scheme for this type. USAF HU-16s were in FS 16473, that is yet another light grey with a blue tinge, IMHO lighter than what can be seen in the pictures but could be another candidate. Were they refurbished somewhere else ? In this case there is the possibility that the paints used were of different origin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artie Posted December 13, 2017 Author Share Posted December 13, 2017 Well, you've nailed it.....!!!! Some examples (can't remember how many), were supplied by the US directly......The six remaining examples came straight from Norway, mainly as substitutes, as some of the earlier ones had suffered any kind of accidents or were written off for one reason or another....If you put one "american" and one "norwegian" side by side, you wouldn't notice any difference in colours, so my guess is original grey upper surfaces, with locally painted White under surfaces, to match their american brothers.... The colour you're suggesting, FS 16473, is what they call ADC grey....????? Seems a very good match, indeed.....needles to say, a pic of the real airplane, given the weathering and heavy use/abuse, salty conditions and sun bleaching (we're talking about planes deployed at southern Spain and the Canaries), would show a much faded grey colour, the same way the underside White seems to be a buff hue..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giorgio N Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 Yes 16473 is ADC grey. Norwegian aircrafts though were darker if I remember those right. Easy to find examples of this paint, just pick a grey F-102 or F-106. IMHO the Spanish aircraft is lighter Another bit of info that may be of use: not all former Norwegian aircrafts went to Spain, a number went to Greece and pictures of preserved Greek aircrafts show a number of greys... some are quite dark, very similar to the Norwegian ones, others are lighter and look quite similar to the Spanish ones, although with low demarcation Of course in the end most of this may or not be useful as if you can find a grey that looks right, this is going to be the best option.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giorgio N Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 Forgot to mention... I have the Amodel 1/144 kit and this includes markings for a couple of US aircrafts. Colours suggested are Light Gull Grey over white Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artie Posted December 13, 2017 Author Share Posted December 13, 2017 Well, sometimes I find it quite funny when we try to find an exact color match, and then scatter all of our array of pastel chalks, oil, etc..over our workbench... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huvut76g7gbbui7 Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 Like @camper1 above, I saw many of the Norwegian machines in Scotland in the sixties and when I built and converted the Monogram kit (complete with balsa wood radome) I painted the top dark sea grey as it looked just like the based Royal Navy aircraft. No such thing as internet back then. I didn't even have a camera so the mark one eyeball had to do. Looking at your photo again and reading that you are going to build one of the six ex-Norwegian ones. Is that aircraft one of the ex Norwegian ones? The white demarcation line is much higher than on the Norwegian ones so if that is an ex-Norwegian one at least the white was further added to. White was white. The beige and any other colour was dirt! Look at any well used white painted seaplane/flying boat or amphibian and you'll see many different colours. As to the grey. I am sticking with Seaplane grey but very faded. Look at pictures of the Norwegian ones and even in those northern parts the grey got lighter.The Greek ones which weren't repainted on delivery from Norway faded even more as would be expected for a Mediterranian climate My final word would be to try a few different paint experiments on a scrap model and match it to a photograph of the machine you are going to build. Not exactly scientific and I'm not going into the pitfalls of colour photography but at the end of the day it has always worked for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trenton guy Posted December 14, 2017 Share Posted December 14, 2017 Don't have any sourced information, but it sure looks like Dark Gull Gray FS 36231 over white. Logical, also, since Dark Gull Gray over white was the standard USN anti-sub scheme during the later part of WWII. The color in the photo is too dark for Light Gull Gray but Dark Gull Gray is in the same family, only darker, as the name so cleverly implies. I believe the same scheme was used for a while on Lockheed Neptunes supplied to the Dutch. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72modeler Posted December 14, 2017 Share Posted December 14, 2017 On 12/12/2017 at 2:13 PM, Graham Boak said: As I understand it, Seaplane Grey is/was a dark grey. Was it just Engine Grey under a different name? In which case you are looking for something like the British Extra Dark Sea Grey. The Spanish example in the photo looks much more like one of the USN Gull Greys, as was standard on USN aircraft for many years after the period of Engine Grey/Seaplane Grey. FS36440? I think you are right, Graham. Seaplane grey and engine grey were basically the same; engine grey is listed as being FS36081 and seaplane grey is listed as FS26081, so they are close, but not the same as dark gull grey, FS36440. I don't have a clue as to which paint was used on the Albatrosses, (Albatri?) but I bet Tailspin Turtle or Dana Bell would know! Attached is a link that might be useful. Mike http://www.e-paint.co.uk/Colour_alternatives.asp?cRange=Federal Standard 595&cRef=26081&cDescription=Sea plane gray / ANA 625 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giorgio N Posted December 14, 2017 Share Posted December 14, 2017 16 hours ago, Trenton guy said: Don't have any sourced information, but it sure looks like Dark Gull Gray FS 36231 over white. Logical, also, since Dark Gull Gray over white was the standard USN anti-sub scheme during the later part of WWII. The color in the photo is too dark for Light Gull Gray but Dark Gull Gray is in the same family, only darker, as the name so cleverly implies. I believe the same scheme was used for a while on Lockheed Neptunes supplied to the Dutch. Some Dutch Neptunes did indeed wear a similar scheme but the grey used was, according to IPMS Nederland, a locally specified colour that is very close to British Medium Sea Grey. Interestingly, MSG is roughly as dark as 36231 but is bluer. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artie Posted December 15, 2017 Author Share Posted December 15, 2017 To make things more complicated, a quick "online" conversation with a friend who's been an acknowledged spanish aviation historian for so many years, revealed that, at some point, when the planes passed their IRAN servives, were oversprayed with local paints, supplied by a spanish manufacturer called Titanlux. They used a grey paint known as Ref. TP405..., a hue quite similar to british Medium Sea Grey. It was an enamel paint, and depending on the amount of thinner used, could turn out to be blueish or greyish..... Cheers... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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