F-4K (FG.1) on Ark Royal lift

[Nigel Bunker]

Hello

With the forthcoming Airfix kit, I thought it might be fun to pose one with everything folded on Ark's lift, just as it was coming up to deck level. The only problem is I can't find a picture anywhere to work from. Can anybody point me in the right direction?

Thanks

[Junchan]

Here are links to a photo and to a video.

http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-aircraft-hms-ark-royal-fleet-air-arm-aug-1971-mcdonnell-douglas-phantom-20091390.html?pv=1&stamp=2&imageid=2EFC8AB6-6AA2-4229-B1FD-F1AC1DBD209A&p=62486&n=0&orientation=0&pn=1&searchtype=0&IsFromSearch=1&srch=foo%3dbar%26st%3d0%26pn%3d1%26ps%3d100%26sortby%3d2%26resultview%3dsortbyPopular%26npgs%3d0%26qt%3df%204k%26qt_raw%3df%204k%26lic%3d3%26mr%3d0%26pr%3d0%26ot%3d0%26creative%3d%26ag%3d0%26hc%3d0%26pc%3d%26blackwhite%3d1%26cutout%3d%26tbar%3d1%26et%3d0x000000000000000000000%26vp%3d0%26loc%3d0%26imgt%3d0%26dtfr%3d%26dtto%3d%26size%3d0xFF%26archive%3d1%26groupid%3d%26pseudoid%3d%26a%3d%26cdid%3d%26cdsrt%3d%26name%3d%26qn%3d%26apalib%3d0%26apalic%3d%26lightbox%3d%26gname%3d%26gtype%3d%26xstx%3d0%26simid%3d%26saveQry%3d%26editorial%3d1%26nu%3d%26t%3d%26edoptin%3d%26customgeoip%3d%26cap%3d1%26cbstore%3d1%26vd%3d0%26lb%3d%26fi%3d2%26edrf%3d

 

 

Watch from 9:08.

 

Jun in Tokyo

https://www.flickr.com/photos/horaburo/albums

[Nigel Bunker]

Excellent Jun, Just what I was looking for.

 

Many thanks.

[71chally]

Good diagram here from Tailspin Turtles excellent pages,

 

http://tailhooktopics.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/spey-powered-phantom-changes.html

 

Shows you how tight it was in the fore and aft sense, I seem to recall that even the fuel dump pipe had to be modified to allow the fitting on the British lifts.

[Graham T]

Great video!!

[Wez]

Slightly OT, interesting to see the tanker Bucc also carrying a Sidewinder.

[Roof Rat]

Good morning Nigel

Just to add a couple of things, if I'm correctly reading the excellent diagram 71chally has posted from tailspin turtles it is captioned aft elevator for three British carriers, on Ark the Phantoms only used the forward lift, the aft lift wasn't large enough to fit a Phantom on. On Ark we had two hanger levels, the upper hanger accessed by both forward and aft lift, and the lower hangar accessed by the forward lift only. The lower hanger was home to the Buccaneers, with the upper hanger being devided in to three areas, the upper hanger extension forward of the lift home to the SAR Wessex, the front half of the main upper hanger home to the Phantoms, with the  rear half home to the Gannets and Sea Kings. The aft lift being used by the Gannets and Sea Kings. 71chally is right it was a tight fit especially if we we're bobbing around a fair bit.

Hope this is of help

RR (Chris).

[bootneck]

Hi Nigel,

 

Chris is correct in that the Phantom only used the forward lift (not elevator).  If you are doing a scenario with the lift partially lowered or raised with your Phantom, then you will need to pay some attention to the details surrounding the lift well.  Here are some scenes showing the forward lift well from various angles:

 

Ark Royal forward lift looking forward.  Note the short hangar space with various racks and storage cages etc.  Old photo but the layout would be similar for the Phantom era.

 

Ark Royal forward lift looking aft.  Note that the Phantoms only occupy the upper level hangar.

 

Eagle forward lift looking forward.  The layout is the same for Ark Royal and shows the chains, to raise and lower the lift, down the side; plus the storage of spare catapult strops etc.

 

Just placing a lift with the aircraft in a box to represent the lift well would, in my opinion reduce the quality and interest of any diorama; unless the lift is almost at flight deck level.  These images are not mine, I just trawled around other members threads and sites to find these in order to help with your query.

 

HTH

 

Mike

[Nigel Bunker]

Thanks for all your help gentlemen - hopefully I can start building over Christmas break.

[71chally]

5 hours ago, Roof Rat said:

Good morning Nigel

Just to add a couple of things, if I'm correctly reading the excellent diagram 71chally has posted from tailspin turtles it is captioned aft elevator for three British carriers, on Ark the Phantoms only used the forward lift, the aft lift wasn't large enough to fit a Phantom on.

Great post Chris, do you know the sizes of the two (aft and fwd) lifts?

 

That diagram is oddly annotated (ie two outlines) and I have wondered if does actually mean the aft lift.

 

Great image with the Whirlwinds in the upper hangar deck, a new one for me.

I can just image the jiggerey pokery involved with dragging out a serviceable a/c past less willful machines!

[Tailspin Turtle]

On 12/12/2017 at 11:09 AM, 71chally said:

Good diagram here from Tailspin Turtles excellent pages,

 

 

http://tailhooktopics.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/spey-powered-phantom-changes.html

 

Shows you how tight it was in the fore and aft sense, I seem to recall that even the fuel dump pipe had to be modified to allow the fitting on the British lifts.

Strictly speaking, the thingy under the rudder was a fuel vent (the fuel dumps were on the trailing edge of the wing outboard). It was modified as shown in a comparison illustration below that diagram on the link you posted.

[Tailspin Turtle]

6 hours ago, Roof Rat said:

Good morning Nigel

Just to add a couple of things, if I'm correctly reading the excellent diagram 71chally has posted from tailspin turtles it is captioned aft elevator for three British carriers, on Ark the Phantoms only used the forward lift, the aft lift wasn't large enough to fit a Phantom on. On Ark we had two hanger levels, the upper hanger accessed by both forward and aft lift, and the lower hangar accessed by the forward lift only. The lower hanger was home to the Buccaneers, with the upper hanger being devided in to three areas, the upper hanger extension forward of the lift home to the SAR Wessex, the front half of the main upper hanger home to the Phantoms, with the  rear half home to the Gannets and Sea Kings. The aft lift being used by the Gannets and Sea Kings. 71chally is right it was a tight fit especially if we we're bobbing around a fair bit.

Hope this is of help

RR (Chris).

That illustration is from a McAir F-4K marketing brochure. However, even stuff from the manufacturer is subject to error and things change: note that the illustration in the post of the folded radome isn't the same as depicted by the excellent pictures and video of the aircraft in service.

[Roof Rat]

Hello James, hello all

The Arks lifts as after the 1967 to 1970 refit.

Forward lift 25 ton working capacity  54ft 1¹⁄₂ inch x 43ft 11¹⁄₂ inch (16.5 x 13.4m) and Aft lift 16¹⁄₂ ton working capacity 54ft 1¹⁄₂ inch x 32ft 9 ³⁄₄ inch (16.5 x 10.0m).

Chris

[Tailspin Turtle]

Actually one-foot minimum clearance was standard in the U.S. Navy. However, after the XF3H carrier trials (and maybe those of the Bell HSL as well), BuAer amended the requirement to require pulling the aircraft straight ahead onto the elevator rather allowing the airplane to be maneuvered into position for clearance, which increased the time to get it below and increased the risk of dinging it on the way up or down. Also see http://thanlont.blogspot.com/2009/06/missed-it-by-that-much-iii.html

[bootneck]

18 minutes ago, Roof Rat said:

Forward lift 25 ton working capacity  54ft 1¹⁄₂ inch x 43ft 11¹⁄₂ inch (16.5 x 13.4m) and Aft lift 16¹⁄₂ ton working capacity 54ft 1¹⁄₂ inch x 32ft 9 ³⁄₄ inch (16.5 x 10.0m).

Sections from official drawings of the forward and aft lifts, for the period mentioned by Chris:

 

Ark forward lift - front to the right

 

 

 

Ark after lift - front to the right.

 

Mike

[zed]

Not wishing to hijack the OP, but a slightly related subject/question. 

 

During Forrestal's Med deployment of Sep 72 to July 73, the F-4B, 151477 of VMFA-531 that developed a fault whilst operating from Ark Royal was therefore kept on board before the ship docked in Malta.  This of course famously led to the aircraft being painted with 892 Sqdn's Omega tail logo as the USN personnel were not welcome in Malta.  I have read that the plane was put in the hangar and repainted then stored on deck whilst in Valetta.  There are pictures of the aircraft on deck with cardboard covering the USMC legend/Stars and Bars to lend credence to this.  If this was the case and it was that important to keep the plane disguised why not keep it in the hangar?  It seems plausible that this could not be done if the plane would not fit on the lift as detailed in this thread.   Is this the case?

[Roof Rat]

Hello zed, hello all

You are correct regarding the F-4B going u/s and staying with us for our visit to Malta. As you are probably aware the F-4's of VMFA-531 had quite a distinctive tail markings which could have been a bit of a give away, and also as you say the government of Malta and the US/USN weren't seeing eye to eye at the time so a decision to apply 892 NAS omega to the tail was taken to help disguise the a/c. This (zap cough-cough) paint job took place on deck adjacent to the island with added wind protection rigged between two fork-lifts. My understanding was that the F-4B as you say could not fit on the lift (elevator) due to the nose-cone not folding to the same extant as on a F-4K . You are also correct regarding the stars & bars being covered with gas (trash) sacks. All sound a bit crude but (to the best of my knowledge) we got away with it.

 

    

 

   

 

 

RR (Chris)

[71chally]

First hand info doesn't come any better than that!

[zed]

7 hours ago, Roof Rat said:

Hello zed, hello all

You are correct regarding the F-4B going u/s and staying with us for our visit to Malta. As you are probably aware the F-4's of VMFA-531 had quite a distinctive tail markings which could have been a bit of a give away, and also as you say the government of Malta and the US/USN weren't seeing eye to eye at the time so a decision to apply 892 NAS omega to the tail was taken to help disguise the a/c. This (zap cough-cough) paint job took place on deck adjacent to the island with added wind protection rigged between two fork-lifts. My understanding was that the F-4B as you say could not fit on the lift (elevator) due to the nose-cone not folding to the same extant as on a F-4K . You are also correct regarding the stars & bars being covered with gas (trash) sacks. All sound a bit crude but (to the best of my knowledge) we got away with it.

 

    

 

    

 

 

RR (Chris)

Fantastic info.  Thanks so much.  Firsthand info indeed.  I am making a model of this subject hence my interest.  One further question, do you recall whether those are twin sidewinder rails on the inner pylons?

[Roof Rat]

Hello Zed, hello all

The honest answer is I cant remember sorry, however looking at a close-up of the last picture in my post (see below) do you think they look like twin rails?? sorry cant be more help.

 

 

RR (Chris)

[Junchan]

I have some more photos of the zapped F-4B and I think it had a Sidewinder launcher only on the outboard of the pylon.

 

Jun in Tokyo

https://www.flickr.com/photos/horaburo/albums

[bootneck]

Gents, to avoid you taking over Nigel's thread with your discussions on the F-4B I would suggest you start a new thread, in fairness to Nigel and to keep things on track.

 

cheers.

Mike