Artie Posted December 9, 2017 Share Posted December 9, 2017 (edited) Good morning all......while lloking for some info about the Hawk 81 in RAF service, came across this pic, and something called for my attention.... There's something that look slike a camera over the side access door...Am I right, or wrong..???? Wich colours would be right for this machine...??? I assume they were Du Pont paint, trying to match the RAF ones, but the underside keeps me tworried.....I am not relying on a colour drawing, so hence the question... TIA and best regards... Edited December 9, 2017 by Artie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted December 9, 2017 Share Posted December 9, 2017 Artie, You're right, it's a camera, these aircraft were used for tactical reconnaissance, if you look on the IWM website and you can find plenty of photos. As for the colours, I'm not knowledgeable enough to comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted December 9, 2017 Share Posted December 9, 2017 Dupont's "Sky Type S Gray" was a close match for Sky but somewhat less intense. I have described it as having a somewhat greyer tinge; but although I was criticised for this, that's still what it looks like to me. Nick Millman has posted several times on this subject, and you might like to contact him, to see what he says on the subject in his blog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stever219 Posted December 9, 2017 Share Posted December 9, 2017 The probability is that the aeroplane was originally finished, and delivered, in the Du Pont equivalents to RAF Dark Green, Dark Earth and Sky. At some point after arrival in the U.K. the spinner and rear fuselage band would have been painted in whichever variant of Sky was available to the Maintenance Unit or 26 Squadron (whichever had the aeroplane on charge at the time). You can bet your shirt, boots or anything else that the two Skys ("Skies?") would not match: from memory I think the Du Pont colour was less rich and slightly greyer or bluer. The port wing underside was repainted Night for an exercise: the colour did not, AFAIK, go all the way to the root (as indicated in the profile that you've posted) but started at the leading edge just outboard of the undercarriage fairing and was swept outboard towards the tip. Have a look at the colour scheme drawings for the Airfix 1/48th scale kit and, hopefully, that'll give you the right information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyverns4 Posted December 9, 2017 Share Posted December 9, 2017 (edited) Hi Artie, From, Jones, R.C., 19??, Camouflage & Markings RAF Northern Europe 1936-45, Tomahawk, Airacobra & Mohawk, No. 12, Ducimus Books Ltd, London. Page 273, "By November 1940 the aircraft operating in the day fighter and army co-operation roles were camouflaged in Dark Green and Dark Earth with Sky under-surfaces. The squadron code and individual aircraft identification letters were in Medium Sea Grey and the spinners were Sky. The fuselage roundels were Type A.1 and those beneath the wings, Type A. Upper wing roundels were Type B and the fin flashes consisted of three vertical stripes of Red, White and Blue, each 8in. wide and 27in. high." A signal, (X.798), dated 27/11/1940 issued to Fighter Command stating that from Dawn 15/04/1941 the underside of the Port wing should be painted in semi-permanent Black with a Type a.1 roundel and a 18in. wide band, in Sky, painted in front of the tailplane. It appears that all had been resprayed in RAF colours. HTH! Christian, exiled to africa Edited December 9, 2017 by wyverns4 extra. extra... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted December 9, 2017 Share Posted December 9, 2017 The Ducimus book predates more recent research: it is possible that the aircraft may have been resprayed but not because of any unhappiness with the colour matching. The history of the various colours used by UK-based RAF Tomahawks has been discussed on this forum before: I didn't keep reference to this but it is worth searching out. Col Ford is another contributor on the subject whose postings are worth finding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyverns4 Posted December 9, 2017 Share Posted December 9, 2017 In addition, the Black applied to the port undersurface appears to have had at least two interpretations looking at the photos in the above mentioned book. 1. A full wing to the center-line, (very clear on P. 273, central image P. 274 and possibly on one airframe - coded E?- at the bottom of P. 274). 2. A partial wing finishing in a curved margin outside of the Port undercarriage fairing, (very clear in the image at the top of P.273 and possibly in the lower image on the same page). The book states that this curved Black area was a special identification marking applied for anti-invasion exercises, with the Army. Christian, exiled to africa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyverns4 Posted December 9, 2017 Share Posted December 9, 2017 3 minutes ago, Graham Boak said: The Ducimus book predates more recent research: it is possible that the aircraft may have been resprayed but not because of any unhappiness with the colour matching. The history of the various colours used by UK-based RAF Tomahawks has been discussed on this forum before: I didn't keep reference to this but it is worth searching out. Col Ford is another contributor on the subject whose postings are worth finding. Interestingly one reason that the book mentions for the re-spray was that, (P. 271), " Very often the crates containing pre-painted component parts became split up in transit and when reassembled, it was clear that on several of the earlier Tomahawks, the camouflage pattern/demarcations did not align correctly. When this occurred, the maintenance unti had to re-spray the adjacent components in an endevour to obtain a consistent camouflage pattern which accounted for many of the so-called 'non-standard' camouflage patterns seen on theses aircraft." Interesting, as I was under the impression that Curtiss used rubber mats for stencils and were know for a consistent finish. As to the 'non-standard' patterns? First I have heard of this and it looks interesting! Christian, exiled to africa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artie Posted December 10, 2017 Author Share Posted December 10, 2017 Thank you very much for your replies.....things are much clearer now....Unfortunately, I've been searching in my "spare decals cigar box", and haven't found any suitable set of "RM o E" fuselage codes, and ordering them is not an option for me...It's an old Hobbycraft kit that, at some point, I started to correct and was set aside for some years........at this point, I'm thinking about an 112 Squadron example, North African campaign Best regards,,, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seawinder Posted December 10, 2017 Share Posted December 10, 2017 FWIW, there's a scan of the color chart submitted to the MAP by Dupont here: http://www.saplasticmodellers.com.au/gallery_articles/articles/p40pg2.shtml It's got chips of two out of the three relevant colors: Dark Green and Sky Type S Gray. At the same page you'll find a digital rendering (not sure if created by Nick Millman, but looks like his work) of the two Dupont Dark Earths. 71-009 is the one used in the TLS as applied to Tomahawks. It's lighter and redder than the later 71-035 (labeled 71-065 on the digital chip, a result, I believe, of a Curtiss typo at some point). I used USAF SEAC tan FS 30219 darkened with some burnt umber. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brewerjerry Posted December 10, 2017 Share Posted December 10, 2017 Hi This is worth a read, even when you have the correct colour match .... it seems you then have to correct it for scale http://cs.finescale.com/fsm/tools_techniques_and_reference_materials/f/13/t/2385.aspx cheers jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seawinder Posted December 10, 2017 Share Posted December 10, 2017 2 hours ago, brewerjerry said: Hi This is worth a read, even when you have the correct colour match .... it seems you then have to correct it for scale http://cs.finescale.com/fsm/tools_techniques_and_reference_materials/f/13/t/2385.aspx cheers jerry I'd say that's definitely a matter of opinion and personal style. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted December 11, 2017 Share Posted December 11, 2017 On 9/12/2017 at 12:42, wyverns4 said: From, Jones, R.C., 19??, Camouflage & Markings RAF Northern Europe 1936-45, Tomahawk, Airacobra & Mohawk, No. 12, Ducimus Books Ltd, London. Date of publication was about 1970. scans of booklet are here http://www.boxartden.com/gallery/index.php/Profiles/Camoflage-Markings/12-Tomahawk-Airacobra RM-E is here 9 hours ago, Artie said: and haven't found any suitable set of "RM o E" fuselage codes, use the book scans to make some masks up, there is a profile here http://www.boxartden.com/gallery/index.php/Profiles/Camoflage-Markings/12-Tomahawk-Airacobra/Tomahawk-Airacobra-and-Mohawk-12-08-960 Or, the new Airfix Tomahawk II kit has a RM-D as an option, https://www.airfix.com/media/groupedupsell/a05133.1_1501499069.jpg so someone will have these codes leftover, ask in the Wanted section, someone will most likely donate you some, the post to Europe I think is a pound BTW. HTH 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artie Posted December 11, 2017 Author Share Posted December 11, 2017 11 hours ago, Troy Smith said: Date of publication was about 1970. scans of booklet are here http://www.boxartden.com/gallery/index.php/Profiles/Camoflage-Markings/12-Tomahawk-Airacobra RM-E is here use the book scans to make some masks up, there is a profile here http://www.boxartden.com/gallery/index.php/Profiles/Camoflage-Markings/12-Tomahawk-Airacobra/Tomahawk-Airacobra-and-Mohawk-12-08-960 Or, the new Airfix Tomahawk II kit has a RM-D as an option, https://www.airfix.com/media/groupedupsell/a05133.1_1501499069.jpg so someone will have these codes leftover, ask in the Wanted section, someone will most likely donate you some, the post to Europe I think is a pound BTW. HTH Well......you are forcing me to spend more money in models....SWMBO will be reported about it, and all the blame will be put on you... "A voice inside my head told me so" stopped working for me so long ago..... I'll look for that Airfix kit, and forget about any trouble...... Best regards.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artie Posted December 11, 2017 Author Share Posted December 11, 2017 10 minutes ago, Artie said: Well......you are forcing me to spend more money in models....SWMBO will be reported about it, and all the blame will be put on you... "A voice inside my head told me so" stopped working for me so long ago..... I'll look for that Airfix kit, and forget about any trouble......anyhow, I was just trying to bless the old Hobbycraft kit with a new chance...I'll use the kit decals, and put aside my time and effort for the Airfix kit.... Best regards.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogsbody Posted December 11, 2017 Share Posted December 11, 2017 Some intel: http://ratomodeling.com/articles/AVG_cammo/ Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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