BIG X Posted December 1, 2017 Author Share Posted December 1, 2017 Back to the tracks in a moment - but how about this for 'shiny'... OK the tracks have had a full rust wash... ...now that is what you call rusty - next the dry wipe to reveal the shiny track tops... PLEASE NOTE - I NEED INPUT HERE... I haven't sealed them yet - I can still take more of the rust off - opinions please - 'leave it' / 'strip more'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niall Posted December 2, 2017 Share Posted December 2, 2017 Rust builds up on tracks when the vehicle is not run. An operational tank would have very little as the vibration of movement and abrasion of the ground will remove it. On the PSC T34 and PzIV kits the tracks are left and right handed if you put a left hand lower with a right hand upper it gives you the sort of gap you pictured. I don't know if this is the case with their Sherman kits. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plasto Posted December 2, 2017 Share Posted December 2, 2017 Concur on the tracks. I would just have painted em NATO Black then used some graphite to replicate metallic wear. With a dusting of earth tone pigments / pastels for good measure.. Thats me if your enjoying your self then all’s good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIG X Posted December 2, 2017 Author Share Posted December 2, 2017 1 hour ago, Niall said: Rust builds up on tracks when the vehicle is not run. An operational tank would have very little as the vibration of movement and abrasion of the ground will remove it. On the PSC T34 and PzIV kits the tracks are left and right handed if you put a left hand lower with a right hand upper it gives you the sort of gap you pictured. I don't know if this is the case with their Sherman kits. There are definitely 'tops' and bottoms' and the track pairs have all the 'teeth' on the outer edge and 'teeth' missing on the inside edge - so even though there are no part numbers I sure I have them paired up correctly. I'll just have to do a little filling and touching up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIG X Posted December 2, 2017 Author Share Posted December 2, 2017 1 hour ago, Niall said: Rust builds up on tracks when the vehicle is not run. An operational tank would have very little as the vibration of movement and abrasion of the ground will remove it. 14 minutes ago, Plasto said: I would just have painted em NATO Black then used some graphite to replicate metallic wear. ...so less rust then??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plasto Posted December 2, 2017 Share Posted December 2, 2017 (edited) Yes.... Niall is 100% correct a working tank wouldn’t get rusty if well maintained. Dirty, banged up but not 80’s Fiat rusty.... I also concur with John the Matchbox Firefly would have been a good starting point. Still your enyoying yourself Edited December 2, 2017 by Plasto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIG X Posted December 2, 2017 Author Share Posted December 2, 2017 1 minute ago, Plasto said: Yes.... Thanks Plasto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIG X Posted December 2, 2017 Author Share Posted December 2, 2017 Whilst the hull is glossed and before I do any washes or weathering - I guess it's decal time... ...the kit doesn't come with any - but I did get a load from skytrex and I want the Sherman to compliment my halftrack... ...so I'm going with... the bull on the yellow field for the 11th armoured white 50 on the red field for brigade HQ But I also want to use some of these... Now this is a bit 'unscientific' but I fancy using the diamond - making it 'HQ' squadron - but which colour??? any ideas??? Red maybe as we are going with the 'senior' theme??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIG X Posted December 2, 2017 Author Share Posted December 2, 2017 ...and would it have stars anywhere??? BTW - I was thinking of a diamond on either side of the turret??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIG X Posted December 2, 2017 Author Share Posted December 2, 2017 As you can probably tell I'm 'floundering' and need more help here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niall Posted December 2, 2017 Share Posted December 2, 2017 Further to my previous post. The tracks on the PSC T34 and PzIV kits have less or no detail on the ends of the tracks which are designed to be on the inside. You got a gap on the tracks if they were the wrong way round. On markings brigade and division HQ vehicles did not have a shape marking on the turret sides(HQ squadron refers to the tank battalion/regiment HQ). Plain stars were supposed used on the hull sides, but these were often omitted as they made good aiming marks for the enemy. The stars in a circle were used on the roof for recognition by aircraft and these were used as the allies had almost complete domination of the airspace. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIG X Posted December 2, 2017 Author Share Posted December 2, 2017 2 minutes ago, Niall said: Further to my previous post. The tracks on the PSC T34 and PzIV kits have less or no detail on the ends of the tracks which are designed to be on the inside. You got a gap on the tracks if they were the wrong way round. trust me - I have the tracks the right way round... ...they just have rubbish detail and fit in the most obvious place you will look at them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIG X Posted December 2, 2017 Author Share Posted December 2, 2017 4 minutes ago, Niall said: On markings brigade and division HQ vehicles did not have a shape marking on the turret sides(HQ squadron refers to the tank battalion/regiment HQ). OK... ...so what exactly are these for Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niall Posted December 2, 2017 Share Posted December 2, 2017 A tank battalion/regiment had the following structure - Battalion Squadron - HQ platoon - 4 tanks(2 had the gun removed and a map table fitted - these were fitted with a dummy gun barrel) Recce platoon - 10/12 Stuart light tanks Scout patoon - 10 Dingo or Humber scout cars Signals platoon - 1 3t Lorry with office body(QL or Retriever) and 3 15cwt morris or CMP light trucks All of the above would have the diamond shape on each side of the turret or hull, although it was usually only on tanks) 3 tank squadrons each with - SHQ platoon - 2 Tanks, Plus 2 Close Support tanks(Sherman 105mm's in Sherman/firefly units), possibly with 1 ARV tank. 3 platoons with 4 tanks or 4 platoons with 3 tanks(The latter was used by the Guards tank brigade and Churchill units). These would have the square, triangle or circle marking for each squadron as listed in the photo you posted. It would be unlikely that a Firefly would be at the division, brigade or battalion HQ. They would be in the tank platoons in the tank squadrons. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIG X Posted December 2, 2017 Author Share Posted December 2, 2017 24 minutes ago, Niall said: A tank battalion/regiment had the following structure - Battalion Squadron - HQ platoon - 4 tanks(2 had the gun removed and a map table fitted - these were fitted with a dummy gun barrel) Recce platoon - 10/12 Stuart light tanks Scout patoon - 10 Dingo or Humber scout cars Signals platoon - 1 3t Lorry with office body(QL or Retriever) and 3 15cwt morris or CMP light trucks All of the above would have the diamond shape on each side of the turret or hull, although it was usually only on tanks) 3 tank squadrons each with - SHQ platoon - 2 Tanks, Plus 2 Close Support tanks(Sherman 105mm's in Sherman/firefly units), possibly with 1 ARV tank. 3 platoons with 4 tanks or 4 platoons with 3 tanks(The latter was used by the Guards tank brigade and Churchill units). These would have the square, triangle or circle marking for each squadron as listed in the photo you posted. It would be unlikely that a Firefly would be at the division, brigade or battalion HQ. They would be in the tank platoons in the tank squadrons. Thanks a million Niall - this is complicated stuff - and I thought the Luftwaffe had a complex chain of command and marking structure You are da man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIG X Posted December 2, 2017 Author Share Posted December 2, 2017 Sorry to be a pain Niall - but you have been so helpful up to now - so if I may... I want to 'relate' the Sherman to my halftrack AND if possible have a squadron marking - so... I'm guessing I keep the yellow bull... ...but do I change the white 50 on red - for a different number - I have lots of others... ...here is a bit of 'back story' from another thread... I like the idea of the 11th armoured - especially after finding this on wikipedia just now... "Eleventh Armoured was not directly committed to Operation Market Garden. Instead, it was tasked with securing the right flank of the operation. Attached to VIII Corps, it began moving on 18 September. Advancing in two columns, it managed to reach the US 101st Airborne Division at Nuenen, while on the 22nd, its engineers established a bridge over the Willemsvaart canal. The division could then make an encircling move around Helmond, forcing the Germans to withdraw on 25 September." What could be better - troops / trucks / halftracks / tanks AND A BRIDGE BUILT OVER A CANAL - RESULT!!! the Sherman - 'at some point' will be crossing a pontoon bridge with this halftrack... ...can you suggest the right number / an appropriate shape marking / an appropriate marking colour??? Thanks again - Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plasto Posted December 2, 2017 Share Posted December 2, 2017 (edited) Here is a starting point via an internet search............. I find this helps a bit... https://www.google.co.uk Producing gems of info such as https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Armoured_formations_of_World_War_II https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/11th_Armoured_Division_(United_Kingdom) https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Sherman_tanks_of_11th_Armoured_Division_during_the_advance_towards_Gemert_in_Holland,_26_September_1944._B10358.jpg when you get to your diorama make sure the combined weight of the tank and half track don’t exceed the bearing weight of the pontoon or Bailey bridge.. Edited December 2, 2017 by Plasto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIG X Posted December 2, 2017 Author Share Posted December 2, 2017 ...if you look back through the thread you can clearly see I know how to use google thanks... However - I consider BM to be a much better 'search engine' for this kind of question Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plasto Posted December 2, 2017 Share Posted December 2, 2017 Folk on BM are incredibly helpful and knowlgeable and freely give time to help others on all manner of topics from how to build a sherman to which 1:1 car should I buy. Some questions though are just as easily answered with 5 minutes on google. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatfingers Posted December 2, 2017 Share Posted December 2, 2017 (edited) Aye up Steve. According to the book British Tanks In Normandy the tank markings for 11th Armoured Brigsde are as follows... Diamond. HQ Squadron Triangle. A Squadron Square. B Squadron Circle. C Squadron The colour of the symbols denoted the order of presidence of the regiments within the Brigade. So for the 11th Armoured the following should apply.... Red symbols Tac sign 51 - Senior Regiment . 23rd Hussars Yellow symbols Tac sign 52 - Second Regiment. 3rd RTR Blue symbols Tac sign 53 - Junior Regiment. 2nd Fife & Forfar Yeomanry. Green symbols Tac sign 54 - Motor Battallion (half tracks etc) The Rifle Brigade. White symbols - Unbrigaded Regiment. Tac sign was a white 45 on a green and blue background and as far as i know they wern't issued with Fireflys (but i could be wrong there) These generally had a 4th squadron which was marked by a thick vertical line. I think it would reasonable for your halftrack to be accompanied by the Firefly wearing 51, 52 or 53 with any squadron marking except the Diamond which is HQ Squadron. So in therory the Tac sign on the Halftrack should be a red 54. But your Firefly could be escorting members of the HQ to a new location Hope this makes some sense. I'm no expert on these matters and have pulled my hair out on many occasion trying to make sense of British armour markings.... Nice work thus far Regards Steve Edited December 2, 2017 by fatfingers Grammer 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIG X Posted December 2, 2017 Author Share Posted December 2, 2017 17 minutes ago, Plasto said: Folk on BM are incredibly helpful and knowlgeable and freely give time to help others on all manner of topics from how to build a sherman to which 1:1 car should I buy. Some questions though are just as easily answered with 5 minutes on google. As I said - thank you. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIG X Posted December 2, 2017 Author Share Posted December 2, 2017 10 minutes ago, fatfingers said: Aye up Steve. According to the book British Tanks In Normandy the tank markings for 11th Armoured Brigsde are as follows... Diamond. HQ Squadron Triangle. A Squadron Square. B Squadron Circle. C Squadron The colour of the symbols denoted the order of presidence of the regiments within the Brigade. So for the 11th Armoured the following should apply.... Red symbols Tac sign 51 - Senior Regiment . 23rd Hussars Yellow symbols Tac sign 52 - Second Regiment. 3rd RTR Blue symbols Tac sign 53 - Junior Regiment. 2nd Fife & Forfar Yeomanry. Green symbols Tac sign 54 - Motor Battallion (half tracks etc) The Rifle Brigade. White symbols - Unbrigaded Regiment. Tac sign was a white 45 on a green and blue background and as far as i know they wern't issued with Fireflys (but i could be wrong there) These generally had a 4th squadron which was marked by a thick vertical line. I think it would reasonable for your halftrack to be accompanied by the Firefly wearing 51, 52 or 53 with any squadron marking except the Diamond which is HQ Squadron. Hope this makes some sense. I'm no expert on these matters and have pulled my hair out on many occasion trying to make sense of British armour markings.... Nice work thus far Regards Steve Hey Steve, Thanks for the 'sensible' - yet 'simple' answer - you can always trust a 'Steve' to come up with the goods. Cheers - Steve 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatfingers Posted December 2, 2017 Share Posted December 2, 2017 Just now, BIG X said: Hey Steve, Thanks for the 'sensible' - yet 'simple' answer - you can always trust a 'Steve' to come up with the goods. Cheers - Steve Your very welcome sir. Glad it makes sense and hopefully makes it a bit easier to decide on the markings. Sometimes using google can make things even more confusing.... trust me i know! Regards Steve 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plasto Posted December 2, 2017 Share Posted December 2, 2017 6 minutes ago, BIG X said: As I said - thank you. That’s quite alright., remember.. www.google.co.uk any questions just ask.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIG X Posted December 2, 2017 Author Share Posted December 2, 2017 1 hour ago, fatfingers said: Your very welcome sir. Glad it makes sense and hopefully makes it a bit easier to decide on the markings. Sometimes using google can make things even more confusing.... trust me i know! Regards Steve OK Steve - decision made... white 52 on a red background for 3rd Royal Tank... ...bully boy on his yellow background for 11th armoured... ...yellow triangles for A Squadron... ...no stars - for now... and whilst all that is drying - I'll be trying to see if I can successfully stick 54 decals over the 50's on that Halftrack ...and remember folks... ...life is too short for many things - but fun isn't one of them - so let's have some shall we 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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