Sydhuey Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 (edited) Looking at Kittyhawk IV colours I am trying to find aircraft in the std US scheme of OD over Neutral Grey and Temp land scheme machines Dark Green/Dark Earth over Sky Grey, many believe they are in Desert scheme but the Desert scheme was not ideal for over Northern Italy, so far the only OD over Neutral Grey machine I have found is the old matchbox 250 Sqn machine "Ghost" FX781 LD-C and Temperate scheme machine from 3 Sqn FX666 CV-Z. The strange thing I can find a fair few images of P-40L's (Kitty IIa's) P-40M's (Kitty III's) from Malta and the initial time in Italy in the Temperate scheme but harder with the Kitty IV's which replaced them, Boston's delivered at this time were also transitioning from the Desert scheme to OD over Neutral Grey for new delivery Boston IIIA's (A-20C's) and temp scheme applied for Boston III's . As has been the way lots of pics and info for North Africa but dries up when the Desert Airforce moved to Italy. Edited June 13, 2020 by Sydhuey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 It is possible that those earlier P-40s in Temperate Land Scheme have had the Middle Stone oversprayed with Dark Green, rather than painted TLS in the first place, or overpainted directly from OD/NG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyot Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 I don`t know of any OD/NG painted Kittyhawks in Italy,.....as you say they were either desert scheme or later TLS. Here are some TLS ones; 5 Sqn SAAF,.....`Lady Godiva'; And my model of the above along with a 3 Sqn RAAF example; This famous 112 Sqn Kittyhawk Mk.IV was also TLS,...the RAFM got the colours wrong on theirs; Another 112 Sqn Kitty alongside a desert one; Kittyhawk Mk.IV, FT846 of 11 Sqn SAAF, crashed in Italy. Not sure about this 11 Sqn SAAF one mind you,.....the Day Fighter Scheme was common in Egypt by 1944/45 and it is possible that this was applied prior to them moving over to Italy? Note how the wing of the nearest aircraft wears TLS. Hope this helps, Cheers Tony 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sydhuey Posted November 25, 2017 Author Share Posted November 25, 2017 (edited) Thanks Tony that makes sense , as I said I had proof of Kitty II's and III's in DG/DE but reference to the Desert scheme persisted with the Kitty IV's , fixation with Desert scheme on Kittyhawks !! Still looking for any in the std US colours OD over NG, the US serials (43-22752/24251 most all this batch went to RAF/RAAF/RNZAF and NEIAF (RAAF))of late delivery Kitty IV's falls in with deliveries to RAAF in Australia and RNZAF and NEIAF (RAAF) units show them in OD/NG schemes, why would they repaint new aircraft? Boston IIIA's delivered end of 43 to units in Med retained OD/NG schemes. Edited November 25, 2017 by Sydhuey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyot Posted November 25, 2017 Share Posted November 25, 2017 (edited) 19 hours ago, Sydhuey said: Thanks Tony that makes sense , as I said I had proof of Kitty II's and III's in DG/DE but reference to the Desert scheme persisted with the Kitty IV's , fixation with Desert scheme on Kittyhawks !! Still looking for any in the std US colours OD over NG, the US serials (43-22752/24251 most all this batch went to RAF/RAAF/RNZAF and NEIAF (RAAF))of late delivery Kitty IV's falls in with deliveries to RAAF in Australia and RNZAF and NEIAF (RAAF) units show them in OD/NG schemes, why would they repaint new aircraft? Boston IIIA's delivered end of 43 to units in Med retained OD/NG schemes. No worries Syd,...... every RAF, RAAF, SAAF Kittyhawk Mk.IV that I have seen photos of in the Med. theatre has traces of a disruptive pattern camouflage scheme mate,.... never seen one which matches OD/NG but never say never I suppose. The MU`s in Italy were quite good at keeping paint schemes up to date and the desert scheme on Baltimore`s was also adapted to the TLS, most often retaining the Azure Blue undersides. Some Spitfire`s and Mustang Mk.III`s also wore the TLS. As a rule of thumb,....if the camo passing through the cockpit area is dark,....then it is TLS,..... and if it is light it is the desert scheme. Is this for yourself or more diecast models? Cheers Tony Edited November 25, 2017 by tonyot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sydhuey Posted November 26, 2017 Author Share Posted November 26, 2017 Thanks Tony, HM P-40N research, as you say the MU's kept on top of schemes, and they is trace on just about all pics of a disruptive pattern, I have info on the schemes they came up with on the Mustang III's OD and Ocean Grey over NG, certainly is a minefield , I wonder how the decision was made to leave Boston IIIA's (A-20C's) in OD over NG when other types were painted ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry McGrady Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 (edited) On 11/23/2017 at 12:10 PM, Sydhuey said: Looking at Kittyhawk IV colours I am trying to find aircraft in the std US scheme of OD over Neutral Grey and Temp scheme machines Dark Green/Dark Earth over Sky Grey, its easier to find machines in Desert scheme but the Desert scheme was not ideal for over Northern Italy, so far the only OD over Neutral Grey machine I have found is the old matchbox 250 Sqn machine "Ghost" FX781 LD-C and Temperate scheme machine from 3 Sqn FX666 CV-Z. The strange thing I can find a fair few images of P-40L's (Kitty II's) P-40M's (Kitty III's) from Malta and the initial time in Italy in the Temperate scheme but harder with the Kitty IV's which replaced them, Boston's delivered at this time were also transitioning from the Desert scheme to OD over Neutral Grey for new delivery Boston IIIA's (A-20C's) and temp scheme applied for Boston III's . As has been the way lots of pics and info for North Africa but dries up when the Desert Airforce moved to Italy. Yes there weren't many in OD/NG There was FR806 GA*Q a MKIII ( P40M) in OD /NG and as you say LD*C FX781 . I've seen a photo of another MK IV on 250 in OD/NG bit no serial identifiable . The Desert Scheme persisted on some A/C in Italy as late as December 1944 from photos I've seen Mostly Repainted in a form of TLS though Edited November 26, 2017 by Terry McGrady Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corsairfoxfouruncle Posted June 10, 2020 Share Posted June 10, 2020 (edited) Quick question ? Is the KittyHawk in this video link in RAF TLS colors ? Or is it Olive drab over Neutral Grey, possibly with Dk.Earth ? Finally is it in Italy or somewhere else ? Im confused by the colors as I think its Olive over Grey ? Can anyone I.D. the unit as well. https://youtu.be/1Zp_UCvA3_I Edited June 10, 2020 by Corsairfoxfouruncle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sydhuey Posted June 10, 2020 Author Share Posted June 10, 2020 (edited) 112 Sqn , I believe a P-40K long tail Kittyhawk III I can't make out the aux intake grill fwd of the exhaust which would make it an "M" so a late "K" model with US 500Ib bomb, using the std pattern as a reference the shading over the nose thru the eye is darker and the demarcation line just under the teeth goes from a lighter shade to a darker shade, this would indicate a TLS scheme with the darker shade most likely being Dark Green and the lighter shaded colour being Dark Earth, if it was in desert scheme the shading would have been reversed. lower colour Sky Grey. If you want to watch a good 239 wing Kittyhawk clip watch, "RAF No 239 Wing Kittyhawk Cutella Italy DAF", 450 Sqn (OK) Kitty IV's on OD/DE over NG, 112 Sqn (GA) Kitty III (long tail K) in desert scheme, and TLS, 260 Sqn (HS)Kitty III (Short tail K) in desert scheme and long tails in TLS , 112 Sqn Kitty III (M) in TLS and 3 Sqn (CV) Kitty III (M) in TLS Edited June 10, 2020 by Sydhuey 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hornet133 Posted June 10, 2020 Share Posted June 10, 2020 (edited) Very interesting, there are a few that look to be still in desert colours that late (3 RAAF moved to Cutella in Jan 44 and the others about the same time). The 3 Sqn RAAF airframe seen (CV-L) is a Mk.IIa (P-40L) version, not a Mk.III (no intake above the nose). CV-L would be FS420 belonging to Jack Doyle who was with 3 RAAF at that stage (he always had L as his personal airframe, using FS420 Oct 1943 to April 1944) keeping that tradition when he moved to 450 Sqn as C.O where he flew several airframes coded OK-L. One 260 Sqn airframe HS-J looks to have 2 long rows of mission markings under the cockpit, with possibly a name above them. The bomb that you see being loaded is a 1000 lb one, bigger than the 500 Lb ones. The long tail Mk.IIIs could carry that much (so could the Mk.IIa variant). The later MkIVs could carry as much as 2000 lb in the FX series airframes, 1500 lbs with the earlier FT series. Steve Mackenzie Edited June 11, 2020 by Hornet133 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corsairfoxfouruncle Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 @Sydhuey and @Hornet133 This is the kit I'm building, its the Sword Kittyhawk III dual pack. Im doing both builds side by side, and Im fine with the SAAF 2 Squadron one in 1942. Its the one for 112 Sqadron in Italy in October ‘43 thats got me stumped ? If it was Sicily or North Africa I wouldn't think twice or blink an eye at it. But I'm just not 100% convinced that that plane in late 1943 wasn't TLS or U.S. Olive/N.Grey with Dk.earth added ? Not when I've seen accounts of them just a few months later operating K/Hawk IV’s in TLS or O.G./N.Grey. Would I be so far off painting the 112 Sq. Option in TLS ? Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sydhuey Posted June 13, 2020 Author Share Posted June 13, 2020 (edited) Oct 43 , just after the invasion ,112 Sqn arrived in Italy mid Sept , a short tail "K" I'd say still in Desert Scheme, look at the video on youtube of 239 wing in Italy that is at Cutella (Jan to May 44) , that has short tail K's in Desert and TLS, long tail K's in both , L's in TLS , M's in TLS and N's in TLS (OD/DE), there is a short tail K with 112 getting refueled in the video still in Desert scheme. 112 still had short tail K's on strength up till April 44 , they had started to get M's in TLS about about Jul 43 the N's arrived in March 44 and they converted to Mustang III's in Jun 44. Though when you look up the history of FR295 GA-G it was shot down over North Africa in Mar 43 ??? "(FR295,GAG) 42-45885 to RAF as Kittyhawk III FR295 Jul 1942. Missing Mar 10, 1943, presumably shot down by Bf 109s NW of Foum Tatouine" I can not find the Sqn code GA-G being used again by 112 after this aircraft was lost. Edited June 13, 2020 by Sydhuey 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buz Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 (edited) Dennis Just checked the Sword kits my end and confirmed the serials. The aircraft would have been finished in desert scheme, as it was lost as is stated 10th March 1943 whilst being flown by FLGOFF Bruce. Aircraft took off at 15:45hrs as part of 12 aircraft formation on escort Mission as Top cover for 250 and 260 Sqdns which were in an area 40 Miles North West of Foum Tataouine (spl). Whilst the strafing Sqdns attacked the top cover was involved in combat with enemy formation of approx. 12-15 Ju-87 and their escort of 20-30 Bf109's. During this combat this aircraft was shot down and was one of 6 lost in this mission. Previously it had been with 450 SQN as OK-E until it was damaged on ops. As Sydhuey stated this is the last occasion that GA-G seems to have been used by the Unit. Basically desert markings and enjoy the build Buz Edited June 13, 2020 by Buz 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corsairfoxfouruncle Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 7 hours ago, Sydhuey said: Though when you look up the history of FR295 GA-G it was shot down over North Africa in Mar 43 ??? "(FR295,GAG) 42-45885 to RAF as Kittyhawk III FR295 Jul 1942. Missing Mar 10, 1943, presumably shot down by Bf 109s NW of Foum Tatouine" I can not find the Sqn code GA-G being used again by 112 after this aircraft was lost. 6 hours ago, Buz said: Dennis Just checked the Sword kits my end and confirmed the serials. The aircraft would have been finished in desert scheme, as it was lost as is stated 10th March 1943 whilst being flown by FLGOFF Bruce. Aircraft took off at 15:45hrs as part of 12 aircraft formation on escort Mission as Top cover for 250 and 260 Sqdns which were in an area 40 Miles North West of Foum Tataouine (spl). Whilst the strafing Sqdns attacked the top cover was involved in combat with enemy formation of approx. 12-15 Ju-87 and their escort of 20-30 Bf109's. During this combat this aircraft was shot down and was one of 6 lost in this mission. Previously it had been with 450 SQN as OK-E until it was damaged on ops. As Sydhuey stated this is the last occasion that GA-G seems to have been used by the Unit. Basically desert markings and enjoy the build Buz Thanks Guys... I couldn't find anything when Googling the FR295 number. Now I know that it wasn't in Italy, Im good with the scheme. Sad to know the plane was lost, and that it was the last G assigned code used by the Squadron. Am I reading this correctly that FLGOFF Bruce was lost as well, or was he captured ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hornet133 Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 I'm late replying as I had other things to attend to. Basically I found the same info as Sidhuey and Buz. FR295 was a 112 Sqn airframe in Mar 1943. Listed in Robin Brown's 'Shark Squadron' as such but no code listed (from mid 1943 odd codes are listed for every airframe as they started to list them in the 112 Sqn ORB). As said above NO airframe with the code GA-G for the rest of the war). I wonder what was the source for the GA-G identity. I could not locate a photo of any such airframe in any source that I checked, trying to find a photo to check on the colour scheme. If you want to do that airframe you can only assume that it would be in the desert scheme going from the date lost in absence of a photo. Whatever the source was it completely screwed up the dates on both FR295 (written off long before the claimed Oct 1943) and Frank Schaaf's OK-Diamond FR242. This airframe WAS used by Frank as OK-Diamond from 26/9 to 19/12/42, but it was sent by 450 Sqn to 53 RSU in Dec 1942. It did come back to 450 Sqn 25/4/43 to 21/8/43 but at that stage it was coded OK-Z. Thus their claim of it being OK-Diamond in July 1943 is another mistake. Corsairfoxfouruncle - one important thing to watch is that Sword have messed up the serials on the decal sheet. While the profiles correctly list the serials of these 2 airframes as FR295 and FR242, the DECALS have them printed incorrectly as RF295 and RF242. Thus they will have to be cut apart and re-arranged in the correct order for the model. If Sword had done a double boxing of the later long fuselage P-40K kit I would have acquired that also to use for long fuselage P-40K and later P-40M & P-40N-1 types (with the addition of the air intake grill on the forward nose). As it was it was a little bit expensive for a single kit (as it was sold at the same price as the double short tail boxing). They have missed the market now with the superior SH kits being available. Steve Mackenzie 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corsairfoxfouruncle Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 6 hours ago, Hornet133 said: I wonder what was the source for the GA-G identity. I could not locate a photo of any such airframe in any source that I checked, trying to find a photo to check on the colour scheme. If you want to do that airframe you can only assume that it would be in the desert scheme going from the date lost in absence of a photo. 6 hours ago, Hornet133 said: Corsairfoxfouruncle - one important thing to watch is that Sword have messed up the serials on the decal sheet. While the profiles correctly list the serials of these 2 airframes as FR295 and FR242, the DECALS have them printed incorrectly as RF295 and RF242. Thus they will have to be cut apart and re-arranged in the correct order for the model. Thanks thats what Ive decided to do as a tribute to the pilot. I will change the FR codes around thanks for catching that. I know I can be a pain when I ask certain questions around here. However you know the old saying “never trust a profile” and My hackles were up and I just didn't feel right about the profile, scheme, or dates. Something was throwing me off, here I thought it was the colors. Guess it turns out it was the location of the aircrafts use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sydhuey Posted June 14, 2020 Author Share Posted June 14, 2020 There seems to be a few P-40 models with wrong info/scheme's/dates /locations, this one with date and location, GA-Jinx a long tail K has been portrayed as a short tail with fillet in decals, artwork and a model, Kitty IV's FX740 and FX-760 GA-? as a reversed Desert scheme , RAF museum , models both plastic and diecst ,and decal sheets. Just reinforces the action of research the model don't believe the box art/instructions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRK4m Posted May 10, 2022 Share Posted May 10, 2022 Is there no chance for Kitty Mk.IV in the Desert Scheme then? None have been painted that way in USA and MUs in Italy only added DE to the Yankee OD/NG standard? Cheers Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted May 10, 2022 Share Posted May 10, 2022 2 hours ago, KRK4m said: Is there no chance for Kitty Mk.IV in the Desert Scheme then? None have been painted that way in USA and MUs in Italy only added DE to the Yankee OD/NG standard? Cheers Michael Unlikely Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hornet133 Posted May 11, 2022 Share Posted May 11, 2022 (edited) KRK4m - 'Is there no chance for Kitty Mk.IV in the Desert Scheme then? None have been painted that way in USA and MUs in Italy only added DE to the Yankee OD/NG standard?' Well that is not entirely true. Craig Busby ('Buz' on forums) well known Aussie P-40 researcher sent me the attached image that he found in a US archive of P-40Ns in RAF markings and C-46s at the Curtiss factory in he believes about June 1943. The RAF marked P-40Ns are painted in a desert scheme ex factory. Thus they would be some of the first P-40Ns for the RAF. By the time they were shipped and reached RAF units, the war had moved onto Italy and the desert scheme was no longer very appropiate for the Italian countryside and no doubt the Midstone colour was overpainted by Dark Green to give the Temperate scheme as used on most P-40Ns in Italy. He sent me the image as he knew that I have always believed that 450 Sqn P-40N FX835 OK-Diamond 'No Orchids' as seen below is in a faded Desert scheme. While it 'could' be a VERY faded Temperate scheme, it is not my opinion that such is correct. Steve Mackenzie Edited May 11, 2022 by Hornet133 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted May 11, 2022 Share Posted May 11, 2022 8 hours ago, Hornet133 said: He sent me the image as he knew that I have always believed that 450 Sqn P-40N FX835 OK-Diamond 'No Orchids' as seen below is in a faded Desert scheme. While it 'could' be a VERY faded Temperate scheme, it is not my opinion that such is correct. Steve Mackenzie Interesting - couple of observations, especially on the roundel. The dark tone of the yellow and the relationship between the tones of the roundel blue/red are seen on quite a few wartime photos of RAF aircraft- it's obviously a certain film or film/filter combination that are producing the effect (Not sure exactly what's happening but one day I'll get the time to try and work it out. It's not true ortho because the yellows aren't black and the blues still have some body). One of the other characteristics of photos showing this effect is that the Ocean Grey element shows much lighter (I suspect due to it's blue component, similar to the roundel) so my initial reaction on seeing that photo would be that it's an aircraft in the Day Fighter Scheme (The sky band points that way too) . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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