Give me your thoughts on the colour of this 109

[Brad]

A book I have suggests overall dark earth but I'm not so sure. I'm leaning towards it being dark blue based on the colour of the British roundel, what do you think?

 

[stevehnz]

It is a bf 109F-4 Trop. I'm wondering if the dark colour we're seeing is a result of a Luftwaffe desert tan colouring with a low demarcation made to look dark by the use of ortho film. It features on the Vintagewings of Canada website.

Steve.

[JackG]

Another photo here at the very bottom:

http://saafww2pilots.yolasite.com/owen-mccarthy-photographs.php

 

I think some kind of paint was applied to the fuselage where the GL codes are as there would of been Luftwaffe markings there - bu total repaint on fuselage, dunno.

 

regards,

Jack

 

[Brad]

Looks like the upper wings were repainted too, you can see a darker colour on the inboard leading edge. The probably yellow bands with british markings on the wings. The last pic seems to confirm it was a dark colour and it looks suspiciously like the blue on the markings.

[stevehnz]

Just realised, not ortho film, otherwise the yellow ring around the roundel would be black.  Fwiw, I reckon the blue of the roundel is darker than the paint job, maybe Dark green or Dark Earth as you originally said. Who knows.

Steve.

[Brad]

One decal sheet thinks it's black....not sure about that either.

[303sqn]

According to the publication 'Captured Me 109s':

 

"Me 109 F-4 W.Nr unknown used as a fast communication hack be 185 Sq RAF. Undersurfaces left in the original German colour with repaintings in the place of markings and elements of quick recognition (lower wingtips and lower engine's cowling panels). All the upperparts and sides painted with medium dark paint (probably Dark Earth or darker, very similar to it). The analysis of photos suggests that the code letters and the fuselage band were painted the same colour as the outside circle in identification marking, which is yellow. Note lack of armament, gunsight and armoured panel proctecting the pilot's head."

[Brad]

Yeh I've got Captured Me 109's, I don't think he's right in his evaluation of the colour, hence me asking for second opinions.

[Graham Boak]

I agree.  Dark Earth wouldn't look that dark, particularly as the film/filter shows the red as a light colour.  Orthochromatic film would show the red as dark (not always the yellow, for some reason I don't understand but may be the filter used) and the Dark Earth would be dark to match.  Here there's a strong contrast between the main colour and the red of the roundel.  Also, in a tropical environment DE faded rapidly, and would look too much like the standard Luftwaffe colour.  Given that it was an enemy aircraft flying in or near a combat environment, I doubt that any camouflage colour would be used, ruling out Dark Green.  Black does seem a likely colour to make it stand out as different, and even non-combatant.  Roundel Blue is another possibility, given the apparent lack of a blue section in the Fin Flash. Or Dark Mediterranean Blue, perhaps?

 

Whichever colour it was, it is only lightly sprayed.  You can make out the demarcation between the original German colours on the fuselage sides,  particularly in the side of the nose and the oil cooler.

[JackG]

Looking back at the page I had linked, there is another photo which also shows yellow leading edge on the wing.  Note the cowl area does look to have a 'patchy' paint job.

 

 

I think standard nose colour for Luftwaffe units based in Africa was white, though some did have just a segment in white and a few even all dark.  If it were known from which unit this bird was captured, then we could say for sure there was a repaint at least in that area.  For arguments sake, say it was white, then obviously a repaint, but does not look dark enough to be black - but then again if those prop blades are black .... 

 

I like Graham's idea of possibly some kind of dark blue that was issued for the Mediterranean, or even the Bosun's blue or oxford blue of PR aircraft?

 

regards,

Jack

Edited November 23, 2017 by JackG

[Graham Boak]

German prop blades were 70 Black Green (a dark green) rather than black.

 

Dark Mediterranean Blue was a standard Air Ministry (strictly Ministry of Aircraft Production) colour.  The dark blue used on PR aircraft in the Middle East and Far East was based on an ICI colour called Bosun's Blue: I forget the details but the mix is given in Geoff Thomas's Eyes For the Phoenix.  For this reason it seems less likely, but if the Bf109 was repainted at the same MU, then why not?

[brewerjerry]

Hi

    I dont think it is roundel blue

  as i think i can make out the

 ' blue rectangle' on the fin stripe 

 

   my random thought due to the 'patchyness'

  is that it could be that temporary black distemper paint as used on night bombers ?

might even be luftwaffe paint found on the airfield the 109 was found at

  cheers

    jerry

[tank152]

After looking through "Luftwaffe Colours" Vol 4 section 2 "The Mediterranean 1942-1943"  I would go probably with RLM 70. There are numerous photos of Jg 77 G2's sporting a dark colour like the OP's subject shortly after their transfer from the East.

Jg 77 apparently made good use of RLM 70 whilst in Russia. Maybe the above photo is of one of those. RLM 70 was a colour  known not to fade as much as other colours. 

There is also a photo of that G2 in the book although it states in there other that it was flown by 185 Sqn no other details are available. 

[JackG]

tank152, great sleuthing on Jg 77 and the overall RLM 70 finish.  That would explain the overall dark colour and why the wing root section still showed considerable wear.

 

regards,

Jack

[noelh]

'Give me your thoughts on the colour of this 109'

Such an innocuous question but one that has started many a flame war on various forums.

 

But one thing I noticed in the photos. Is there a hint of a shine on the fuselage?  Even allowing for the intense light in the desert. Could that imply something other than the usual matt colours? Roundel blue as suggested. Was that flat matt?

[Brad]

Yes there were two captured Bf 109F's in this very dark overall colour. Interesting about the RLM 70, although if that was the case, why are there no visible areas of paint to rub out the Luftwaffe markings.

[Brad]

Note the inside of the battery hatch is a lighter colour too.

 

[brewerjerry]

  deleted 

Edited November 25, 2017 by brewerjerry