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Brough Phantom


iainpeden

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This picture was posted by "F3" on Fighter Control and the poster, Michael, has given me permission to post it here.

 

24674237718_58c9ebaf21_b.jpgBrough by Iain Peden, on Flickr

 

There are a numberof interesting points from a modelling perspective. It has the RWR fin fitted but retains high viz roundals on the fuselage and a full colour, square, fin flash. However the underwing markings are red/blue only, but the serial continues onto the outer wing panel. I have also just noticed there's no inner pylons fitted. After a bit of searching Michael and I think it's XT852 - a YF-4M.

 

Any further thoughts would be appreciated.

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It is a YF-4M, the first FGR.2, XT852.  It was retained for trials work for most of it's career by HS and BAe at Holme on Spalding Moor and then Brough.  Previously it was used to pre-service trials in the 'States.

Sadly it survived at West Freugh until as recently as July 2011.

Edited by 71chally
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It’s difficult to tell from the picture, but unless the pilot was making a large stick input to roll to the right the exact moment the photographer took the shot, this one seems to have drooped ailerons. Strange if this the case, as drooping ailerons were a feature of the F-4K/FG.1, not the F-4M/FGR.2....

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1 hour ago, guillaume320 said:

It’s difficult to tell from the picture, but unless the pilot was making a large stick input to roll to the right the exact moment the photographer took the shot, this one seems to have drooped ailerons. Strange if this the case, as drooping ailerons were a feature of the F-4K/FG.1, not the F-4M/FGR.2....

Exactly what I was going to say. drooped ailerons with flaps down would be a unique visual clue to an FG1 as the (production) FGR2 did not have drooping ailerons. The definition of the photo isn't great so it is difficult to tell if the extension scissor link is hiding there between the nose wheels or not but the lights on the nose gear door would also indicate an FG1. It is possible the prototype FGR2 had more in common with the FG1 though.

 

Duncan B

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The prototype FGR.2 did have several features in common with the FG.1 though the noseleg was standard. I hadn't heard the drooping ailerons were one of these features, but I did get told some time ago that it had folding wings FG.1 style, though again I have not seen any direct evidence of that.

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The two YF-4 M / FGR.2s did have the carrier style nose wheel door.

 

I have seen a pic of XT893 with drooped ailerons, but it was in a dismantled state at St Athan.

 

The picture above looks like it could have been taken at a display, note everthing down, even airbrakes, so perhaps it was making a slow commanded roll at the point the picture was taken.

 

My understanding is that FGR.2s could fold their wings, but didn't need to in service, there are certainly pics of FGR.2s with wings folded in their earlier days of service.

 

 

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The difference between FG.1 and FGR.2 wing folds as I understand it, is the FG.1 can be powered from the cockpit, while the FGR.2 is manual. The FGR.2 also has a pop out warning to show it is unlocked.

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Just now, Rhino said:

The difference between FG.1 and FGR.2 wing folds as I understand it, is the FG.1 can be powered from the cockpit, while the FGR.2 is manual. The FGR.2 also has a pop out warning to show it is unlocked.

 

Correct. Having worked on Phantoms at St Athan, although I was on a FGR2 team I am sure that one time we had one that had powered wings. Trying to stop hydraulic power is not recommended as I held on to the outer wing and letting go before  I was thrown over it.

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6 hours ago, Jabba said:

 

Correct. Having worked on Phantoms at St Athan, although I was on a FGR2 team I am sure that one time we had one that had powered wings. Trying to stop hydraulic power is not recommended as I held on to the outer wing and letting go before  I was thrown over it.

Coincidentally I only ever worked on FG1's but have a distinct memory of manually folding wings on at least one Phantom. It could be that it was during my Q course at Coningsby but my memory tells me that one of the prototypes did eventually make it into service and it was this one that had manual wing fold, can anyone confirm this or is my memory playing tricks on me.

 

All the Phantoms had indicator pins for the wing locks, all our Phantoms had red painted areas inside the moveable sections (to stop the Sooties getting stuck in bits during ground runs :) ). All the squadrons would fold the wings when putting the aircraft to bed to save room in the hangers.

 

Duncan B

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An RAF Germany FGR 2 was lost after taking off with the wings spread but not locked.  As the jet lifted off the aerodynamic loads caused the outer panels to fold, thereby moving the centre of lift forward relative to the venture of gravity.  The aeroplane pitched up and eventually stalled but fortunately the crew were able to eject and survived.  One factor that was identified during the investigation was that the inch-long indicator pin, although painted red, could be missed during a walk-round by an aviator of even slightly-smaller-than-average stature.

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8 hours ago, Rhino said:

The difference between FG.1 and FGR.2 wing folds as I understand it, is the FG.1 can be powered from the cockpit, while the FGR.2 is manual. The FGR.2 also has a pop out warning to show it is unlocked.

The FG.1 also had pop out warning rods out by the outboard hinge line

 

Dennis

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1 hour ago, Duncan B said:

Coincidentally I only ever worked on FG1's but have a distinct memory of manually folding wings on at least one Phantom. It could be that it was during my Q course at Coningsby but my memory tells me that one of the prototypes did eventually make it into service and it was this one that had manual wing fold, can anyone confirm this or is my memory playing tricks on me.

Duncan B

Duncan - were you at Leuchars when 43 had a couple of FGR.2's ?  The earliest FG.1 to enter service was XT598 which was brought up to full service standard and issued to Tremblers 4/78 as E and the sqdns first FG.1.  Didn't last long as it crashed into St Andrews bay in November the same year.

 

Dennis

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10 hours ago, Duncan B said:

All the Phantoms had indicator pins for the wing locks...

Duncan B

Is this it?

I realise that ordinarily it would be painted red and with the wings spread it would be retracted, but it is a preserved aircraft,

xv497%20(52).jpg

Pic courtesy of Britmodeller, Graham Platt & Julien.

Edited by 71chally
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10 hours ago, sloegin57 said:

Duncan - were you at Leuchars when 43 had a couple of FGR.2's ?  The earliest FG.1 to enter service was XT598 which was brought up to full service standard and issued to Tremblers 4/78 as E and the sqdns first FG.1.  Didn't last long as it crashed into St Andrews bay in November the same year.

 

Dennis

Hi Dennis

 

This would have been 1982-85ish but I have a strong memory of myself and John Porcelli taking turns at winding the wings up with a speed brace and a lot of swearing while others looked on an laughed (as they do). If it was in the Hanger for something minor I suppose I wouldn't necessarily have noticed it was an FGR2 or more likely remember. That would certainly explain it.

 

Duncan B

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11 hours ago, Max Headroom said:

Does the person who took the photos have any other shots in the sequence which may shed some clues?

 

Trevor 

 

ps I’m no expert but that nose wheel door is more FGR.2 than FG.1?

You can see the coloured 'Traffic lights' with the red light lit (indicating hook down?), the FGR2 didn't have them, only white landing lights.

 

17 minutes ago, 71chally said:

Is this it?

I realise that ordinarily it would be painted red and with the wings spread it would be retracted, but it is a preserved aircraft,

xv497%20(52).jpg

Pic courtesy of Britmodeller, Graham Platt & Julien.

Yes that's the locking pin indicator, usually painted a fetching dayglo sort of red.

 

Duncan B

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9 hours ago, 71chally said:

Is this it?

I realise that ordinarily it would be painted red and with the wings spread it would be retracted, but it is a preserved aircraft,

xv497%20(52).jpg

Pic courtesy of Britmodeller, Graham Platt & Julien.

 

We used to apply Orange paint at St Athan, but after the first time that the pins were moved down to show that the wings were locked, the paint was removed. So the picture above is reasonably accurate.

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