Jump to content

Missouri Armada P-51D Mustang: documents and partial scratch from the Tamiya 1/48 kit


Recommended Posts

Yes, that is precisely correct Olivier with regard to the canopy. That little square latch was spring-loaded, and assisted in opening the canopy (from the factory, it had a "Hand Hold" stencil applied next to it, just like the larger hand hold had as well, near the fuselage fuel cap). It was only present on the left-side and there was nothing on the right-side.

 

There are actually a few restorations which have this early canopy, including "Cripes A' Mighty":

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/41161851@N03/4000114429/sizes/l

https://www.flickr.com/photos/grantbrummett/3345539992/sizes/l

https://www.flickr.com/photos/53632001@N02/5631156185/sizes/l

https://www.flickr.com/photos/53632001@N02/6513901905/sizes/l

https://www.flickr.com/photos/jackmcgo210/4412652622/sizes/l

 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Waooh! again great pics, showing precisely the latch and the mention "HAND HOLD", especially on this one. Thanks a lot!

rUKMEz.png

 

I was about to ask you if this squared release latch on the left side was compatible with the conservation of the round hole on the front part of the canopy, behind the long release handle, and I noticed that on the last pic:

0BIyEi.png

 

I am surprised to see this red button (on the previous pics, we seemed to have just a round hole). Can you explain that please? Should I represent this red button since I keep the round hole? 

 

Cheers

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, the button there pretty much fills in the hole, and does stick out a bit. The end of the button/plug was made of laminated phenolic, which has a dark bown color/wood-like appearance. They were left that way from the factory during WWII, but post-war, in the USAF and in most restorations today, they're painted red. On the most authentic restorations, such as "Sierra Sue II" and "Upupa Epops", they're left bare phenolic (dark flat brown color) with no red paint.

 

I've brightened up this first image to see the button more clearly.

 

41051143112_9e33cdd560_o.jpg

 

26222950347_2c4891c13c_o.jpg

Edited by John Terrell
  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Waooh ! Again great close-up of the button, very useful, thank you so much.

Do you think we could have this version of the crank assembly with the button (modified in the field) combined with the squared latch on the canopy? 

 

P.S: I got today the Merle beautiful book « To war with the Yoxford boys » ordered on ebay on Antonio ´s recommendation. Only 2 regrets:

- it is not in french (again efforts to read it...)

- no more pic of the Missouri (I ever knew that by Antonio).

Except that, it is really a beautiful book, to recommend...

 

What does the author means by "the Yoxford boys" to mention the 357th FG men?

 

Cheers

 

Edited by Olivier de St Raph
correction
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, the type of canopy assembly installed versus the type of crank assembly installed doesn't matter, as the "Cripes A' Mighty" restoration shows, either versions will work with each other. The only real difference in the late canopy is simply that it had the two handles/hand hold bars, one on each side of the frame, so you had something to really hold onto to pull the canopy open from either side. The two different types of canopy cranks install to the same mounting hole locations.

Mustang experts would expect to not see the hole/button for the canopy unlock on a P-51D-10-NA, but if you do continue to go forth with it I think there is enough evidence to include it as field modification/upgrade (though I still feel that "Missouri Armada" likely didn't have it, at least not as early as when the aircraft was known as "Missouri Armada"). Here are several examples I've pulled of early D/K's that came out of the factory with the early crank/no button but show up in later wartime photos with the late crank/button installed (note these all still have the early canopy frame - no hand hold or handle on the right-side):

 

http://147084544c678448852d-ddcc53207dce6036b290906311a424f9.r57.cf3.rackcdn.com/rfc/FRE_006048.jpg?_ga=2.110843328.419399899.1522348937-758886358.1522094187

http://147084544c678448852d-ddcc53207dce6036b290906311a424f9.r57.cf3.rackcdn.com/rfc/FRE_005388.jpg?_ga=2.83123923.419399899.1522348937-758886358.1522094187

http://147084544c678448852d-ddcc53207dce6036b290906311a424f9.r57.cf3.rackcdn.com/rfc/FRE_002423.jpg?_ga=2.175192423.419399899.1522348937-758886358.1522094187

http://147084544c678448852d-ddcc53207dce6036b290906311a424f9.r57.cf3.rackcdn.com/rfc/FRE_006046.jpg?_ga=2.204633813.419399899.1522348937-758886358.1522094187

http://147084544c678448852d-ddcc53207dce6036b290906311a424f9.r57.cf3.rackcdn.com/rfc/FRE_000514.jpg?_ga=2.138122613.419399899.1522348937-758886358.1522094187

http://147084544c678448852d-ddcc53207dce6036b290906311a424f9.r57.cf3.rackcdn.com/rfc/FRE_002852.jpg?_ga=2.105676358.419399899.1522348937-758886358.1522094187

http://www.americanairmuseum.com/media/18382

http://www.americanairmuseum.com/media/29589

http://www.americanairmuseum.com/media/21105

http://www.americanairmuseum.com/media/19754

http://www.americanairmuseum.com/media/18489

http://www.americanairmuseum.com/media/12860

 

Here is "Butch Baby", however, late in the war (probably around/after VE-DAY/May '45), and it still has the early canopy crank/no external button, so you never know for sure. I'm posting this photo here because even though this aircraft was painted in the field with RAF Dark Green just like "Missouri Armada", you can see that the canopy emergency release handle did indeed remain red. (It's also interesting in that it has a replacement Dallas-made plexiglass bubble.)

http://147084544c678448852d-ddcc53207dce6036b290906311a424f9.r57.cf3.rackcdn.com/rfc/FRE_006093.jpg?_ga=2.105092806.419399899.1522348937-758886358.1522094187
 

Some more great images of the early canopy can be seen here: http://www.americanairmuseum.com/aircraft/21701

Edited by John Terrell
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks John for these new precisions. You are right, the Butch Baby hasn't got the button about may 1945, but the Missouri I represent is from January 1945, and without being able to be sure of course, I consider quite probable that the new crank system has been installed on it, and more, I like the idea to represent it, with its little phenolic brown button, I admit ;).

I have to leave you now to get ready for my intervention, not very funny, but necessary...

 

All the best to all, see you soon

 

Olivier

 

P.S: I will represent the release handle in red, thanks for that confirmation too...

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Yoxford Boys was bestowed on the 357 Group by William Joyce "Lord Haw Haw"  over the Bremen-Hamburg-Cologne radio. The village of Yoxford is close to the Leiston airfield. I too have the book excellent read picked up at a model show for £25.

Edited by T-21
Corrections
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

«And one more interesting detail - the front retractable part of the flap is also painted over by green. »

Edited 2 hours ago by Fencer-1

 

qMLg5d.jpg

 

I suppose you mean this (black arrow). Yes, indeed, even if the pic is BW, it hardly seems that this portion was painted green, unlike the one below:

 

3RE79L.jpg

 

Confirming that we could have variations from an aircraft to another. In the doubt, and for aesthetic reasons, I think I will go for the alu version of that front part of the flap.

 

The same comment may be done for the crank button. Indeed, it is missing on this pic of the FLOOGIE II, while the K14 was present (well observed, Alexey), but we don't know when the photo was done. I have begun to read the Merle's book, and especially the pages 177 and 178, that I would reproduce here with pleasure but I am not sure I may. 

On p. 178, Merle explains:

"Prior to the 14th of the month, the appalling weather conditions has restricted missions to only seven days..." and later:

"By the 14th, the weather was ideal for what was to be "The Big Day". in 357th Fighter Group history, resulting in the largest number of enemy aircraft shot down by one group, in one day, in 8th Air Force history."

It is imho highly probable (this may be checked I suppose) that the last J.B England victories happened on that day (not before anyway), which would mean that the last svastikas awards painted on his Missouri were from the 15th (or later), a few days before his return to the USA (the 26th). It is in that period that imho, our photos 20 and 23 were done, and in that period that I situate my build (Eaglecals provides a 18 svastikas award, even if England's official score was 17,5).

As for the BUTCH BABY, in the lack of precise date for the photo, we may imagine - without certainty, I admit - that they were done before the 15/O1/1945, explaining the early version of the crank without the button.

In the lack of more photos (especially showing the right side) of the Missouri, we just can do assumptions and personal choices, and in this case, I try to choose what seems to me the most probable but also the one I prefer aesthetically.

 

Thanks anyway for your very good contribution, I look forward to order the resin flaps you will soon get available, Alexey.

 

Olivier

 

P.S: on p. 178 of the book, there is the photo we know with the crew (our doc 22). I personaly don't think the wing was covered, the covers I saw (fe on p. 179, but somewhere else too, maybe in the O'Leary book, don't remember) did not concern the wing, but the canopy. The white marks on the aircraft being very probably freeze, as it has been said. We may think - still an assumption - that this photo with the crew was done at 1944 year's end, or the first days of 1945, in that period where the weather was so cold. Merle writes on p. 177:

"Such was the general situation at year's end. The weather that winter had been throughout Europe and there were many days when flying was all but impossible. At bases scattered across England, hundreds of fighters seemed to huddle under their canopy covers, shrouded in mist and freezing rain."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Olivier de St Raph said:

Thanks for your support messages chaps. I am tired but all is OK, not too much pain.

I should leave the hospital within about 2 hours...

Cheers

Hi Olivier,

 

Wishing you a speedy recovery and a nice and long week-end.

 

Cheers,

 

Laurent

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Olivier de St Raph said:

P.S: on p. 178 of the book, there is the photo we know with the crew (our doc 22). I personaly don't think the wing was covered, the covers I saw (fe on p. 179, but somewhere else too, maybe in the O'Leary book, don't remember) did not concern the wing, but the canopy

HI Olivier,

look at the picture on page 176 ;)

cheers

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok Antonio, I admit I had not noticed the cover on the background P-51 in the photo of p.176. But in both cases (the latter and the one you posted above, very nice, furthermore), the canopy is covered too.

In addition, I found back the photo in the O'Leary book (p. 172) I was mentioning above:

 

NGNA0X.jpg

 

There is another photo in the Merle book, p. 171, in which only the canopy is covered, while the wings are not.

 

My personal conclusion: maybe I am wrong but it seems to me that the most fragile parts of the aircraft, requiring protective canvas covers, are not the wings but mainly the canopy and to a lesser degree the set propeller/ engine. So it would be surprising that the wings are covered on our doc 22 (crew) while the canopy isn't (the only example in fact up to now). More, I don't discern the limit of such a cover on the doc 22. Anyway, this is just a point of detail with no consequence. We may agree to say that anyway, the white traces on the aircraft wings are certainly frost.

 

Cheers

 

Mc6HQf.jpg

 

P.S: I found in Wikipedia (this has maybe ever been said somewhere in the thread) that the last destroyed german aircraft (a Me-109 20 miles nortwest of Berlin) by John England was indeed on that Big Day, the 14th of january, 12 days before his return to the homeland, confirming that our photos 20 and 23 were taken between the 14 and the 26/01/1945. 

 

 

This Wikipedia article mentions also the sad circumstances of his death:

 

hqL49j.png

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

In that last photo of Missouri Armada, the flaps are most definitely in the up position, and as Antonio mentions, it certainly appears to have a tarp/cover over the wings to keep from having to manually clear snow and ice off the wings, as was the case in the time period we're looking at (winter of late '44/early '45). Detail around the fuel cap and wing fairing is just the standard pattern of wear/paint loss for those areas.

 

Note the "GROUND HERE" stencil applied over/around the grounding plug hole next to the fuel cap. This was one of the few stencils that the 357th actually reapplied on these aircraft after the 357th painted them. It's unique in that the 357th applied that stencil in such a way that the hole for the grounding plug actually took the place of the "O" in "GROUND".

Edited by John Terrell
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, John Terrell said:

the flaps are most definitely in the up position

Well, it seemed to me the flap was doing an angle with the wing, suggesting its low position the aircraft frequently had on station... I remain a bit sceptical, but Antonio and you are definitely better experts than me...

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I come-back to the left panel, that I have to finish. I have 2 versions of the throttle, 1 has a ball shape, the other has a long cylindrical one. Previously, I had represented the latter, but it has been damaged and, as I have to redo that step, I now wonder which one had to be present on the 10-NA like the Missouri:

9xUauO.png

 

On the 5-NA, this doc says the ball-grip throttle is right:

89Is1u.png

 

On this later version, cylindrical throttle, the one I represented above (see my posts#261 and 272 p. 11):

iHGbo9.png

 

Unless the throttle has been modified after the 5-NA version, it is more probable that I should represent the ball-grip one. I am waiting for your opinion on the matter to go on...

Thanks in advance

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Olivier de St Raph said:

And one more interesting detail - the front retractable part of the flap is also painted over by green

Hi Olivier,

it looks like this was usual on the camuflaged 357th, there are more pics that confirm this, good point Alexey!

flapgreen3.jpg

FREo.jpg

cheers

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

30 minutes ago, antonio argudo said:

Hi Olivier,

it looks like this was usual on the camuflaged 357th, there are more pics that confirm this, good point Alexey!

Yes, very good point, indeed, and very good pics, Antonio, that probably will lead me to change my mind on this matter. The nice Getty pic of my post#813 showed a P-51 that did not belong to the 357th FG.

The several examples Alexey and now you show give a very hard presumption to say that I should paint this portion Dark Green and not alu as I intended to do.

Thanks to both of you to avoid what was certainly an error!

Cheers

P.S: as I wrote these lines, Antonio has still brought mist to Alexey’s mill, confirming my decision...

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Olivier, with regard to the throttle lever, it all depends on what gun sight you will have installed/depicted.

 

The early ball-tip throttle was just the basic lever that was installed from the factory on all P-51D's that had the N-9 reflector gun sight installed from the factory (such as the P-51D-10-NA).

 

The late, cylindrical/barrel throttle lever is actually part of the K-14 gun sight kit/package - it came with the K-14. That later throttle was integral to operating the K-14 - there was a cable that ran from the throttle through the instrument panel up to the gun sight so you would just twist the grip of the throttle to change the range settings of the gun sight, never having to take your hands off the controls.

 

So if you are depicting a K-14 on the model (as the original appears to have had installed post-factory), then you definitely would need to depict the later throttle, since the early throttle would have been removed and the late one installed when the K-14 was added.

 

 

Edited by John Terrell
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...