antonio argudo Posted March 6, 2018 Share Posted March 6, 2018 (edited) Hi Olivier, next step will be contacting a medium to find out more info about Missouri by the way, that wing in the last picture is from a "B" model cheers Edited March 7, 2018 by antonio argudo 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattlow Posted March 6, 2018 Share Posted March 6, 2018 Fantastic stuff on the filler/primer.. I see in a couple of photos that the YZC is applied thinly enough to be still able to discern the Alclad stamps on the metal. That'd be an interesting effect... Also I have to ask, but what is the deal with the diagonal part of the inside of the inner wheel door which has a different finish (various finishes seen). Is it a replaceable area that got more abraded/damaged during retraction of gear...? I think my 1/32 Tamiya Mustang will be done at the attaching wing to fuselage stage so I can show all these different finishes.. Matt 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Terrell Posted March 6, 2018 Share Posted March 6, 2018 (edited) Matt, The Alclad watermarks were applied to the metal with red dye, and zinc chromate is naturally partially translucent, so the Alclad watermarks would/do bleed through. The "diagonal part" that you describe on the inner landing gears doors is the rub plate, made of stainless steel, which the tires rub against when they extend. Because they are made of stainless steel, they have to have a coating of zinc chromate on the side that comes into contact with the bare aluminum landing gear doors. During original wartime production, many of these stainless steel rub plates had a coating of (raw - "yellow") zinc chromate applied on both sides of the panel, while at other times only the side actually in contact with the landing gear door was coated in zinc chromate and therefore the outer-facing side remained bare stainless (which appears darker than aluminum). Despite the fact that many (perhaps most?) inner landing gear door rub plates were coated on all sides with zinc chromate during original wartime production, most all restorations today have them with the outer-facing surface remaining bare (mainly just for aesthetics, and the general false opinion that it was the way they were most commonly). I can actually provide a good number of original color photos of WWII-era P-51B/C's and D's with yellow zinc chromate rub plates on the inner landing gear doors, while I have a hard time finding anywhere near as many, from the same era, with bare stainless rub plates. Edited March 7, 2018 by John Terrell 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Terrell Posted March 6, 2018 Share Posted March 6, 2018 (edited) With regard to the wheel wells again, if I had some good photos of P-51D-10-NA wheel wells to post, I'd definitely post them, but I have nothing. It is very difficult to find any wartime-era photos of completed or in-service Mustangs showing any clear view of the wheel wells. Most all of the good factory photos seem to come from the P-51D-30-NA production line (including those which I used to create my wing filler/finish diagram illustration), though I've seen a few good ones from the P-51D-5-NA production line as well (just not wings). No matter really which generation of P-51D you're depicting, however, the general guideline I've come to follow is that all of the main structural components were coated in (raw - "yellow") zinc chromate - this include the spars, stringers, and ribs (though you could add in a random green zinc chromate rib and/or stringer for good measure - more interesting, and perhaps even more authentic). Most all of the smaller brackets were usually coated in green zinc chromate. The skins (forming the roof of the wheel wells), especially on earlier planes, would be left bare. Edited March 7, 2018 by John Terrell 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Terrell Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 (edited) All of the period factory images that I worked from to base my wing filler/putty guide by are from the P-51D-30-NA production run. The way in which the wings were filled on the "Sierra Sue II" restoration might have followed an earlier set guideline (perhaps to the 33% chord of the wing, rather than 40%, as is also sometimes referred to), I don't know. In the restoration of "Sierra Sue II", they used a modern body putty to substitute for the original surfacer and glazing putty, but to work to the same effect. I don't know if I was as clear to describe it earlier, but the "surfacer" was sprayed onto the wing to provide an overall filled surface. As a result, it appears as an airbrushed application. With the red vellutine glazing putty, however, it was applied by hand and spread with a putty knife, then sanded, so the spread of the glazing putting varied quite a bit and of course based on how much was applied at any given spot to achieve the result required. My guideline (which I did rather quickly) just provides a general senses of where the glazing putty was used. These first sets of images are what I used to determine how to depict the way in which the surfacer application may fan back on the wingtips (which really isn't important to focus on, because there is no surface detail to cover on the wing tips if they are already perfectly smooth/devoid of any deformations - other than the attachment screws just outboard of the wingtip panel line). Edited March 7, 2018 by John Terrell 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bedders Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 9 hours ago, antonio argudo said: Hi Olivier, next step will be contacting a medium to find out more info about Missouri by the way, that wing in the last picture is from a "B" model cheers In fact I think it's even earlier than that: judging by the size of the ammunition bays it looks like a P-51 (no letter) or Mustang I wing. Justin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles87 Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 Hi Olivier, it makes sense to me that the Gray Surfacer would extend all the way to the flap line near the wing roots as this area would see a lot of wear from boots etc., and I still think that there might have been differences in procedures between Inglewood and Dallas. Cheers John PS. For Bedders, according to Larry Davis in the Mustang Walkaround book, on post war P-51s the yellow areas were often overpainted with green, and there are pictures of wheel wells in green with a hint of yellow showing through. HTH 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antonio argudo Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 In this one, looks like the aplication is not symetrical in both wings! cheers 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Terrell Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 (edited) Thank you for posting that photo, Antonio. I was just looking at it late last night and was going to post it here too. I believe it was taken during P-51D-5-NA production (for which there are a few clues - certainly earlier than D-30-NA). Note that at this earlier stage, that extra bit of surfacer up near the root of the wing was applied only on the left side - the same side that was intended for the pilot to always use to get in/out. Edited March 7, 2018 by John Terrell 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antonio argudo Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 found this, also from an early p-51 model cheers 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted March 7, 2018 Author Share Posted March 7, 2018 My God, chaps, how all that is difficult and complicated for me with my perfectible english (the wheel wells still more than the filler areas). About the latter, OK, if I understand well, pity, we have no pic showing P-51D-10-NA wings to know precisely what areas were covered by the Acme Gray Surfacer, but we can use the last Antonio pic (post#683), with non symmetrical application on the wing roots, as John has clues to say it is a 5-NA (phew!). The J.T assumption explaining the non symmetrical application on wings roots is very interesting and possible. Antonio, are you sure you will choose to build the Missouri Armada? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antonio argudo Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 looking closely at this one, I had one thought, could be that there is like some kind of wing covers on the left bottom, and could be snow the white stuff on the wing and fuel intake, also in the ground, the crew are wearing even gloves and scarf, looks very cold weather 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted March 7, 2018 Author Share Posted March 7, 2018 11 minutes ago, antonio argudo said: found this, also from an early p-51 model Yes, Antonio, all pics we have from early versions (including B and C) have less areas covered. The question is: was 5 and 10-NA treated like these early versions, or was it treated like later ones, such as the "Sierra"... John, what are these clues that lead you to say this P-51 is a 5-NA? considering we have no other pic of such a version, it becomes a very important document... Cheers 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted March 7, 2018 Author Share Posted March 7, 2018 5 minutes ago, antonio argudo said: looking closely at this one, I had one thought, could be that there is like some kind of wing covers on the left bottom, and could be snow the white stuff on the wing and fuel intake, also in the ground, the crew are wearing even gloves and scarf, looks very cold weather Hi Antonio, I totally agree that clearly the weather was very cold on that day, but I admit it is very difficult for me to say if the wing roots were covered or not and if the traces we can see on the aircraft are snow (or most likely frost) but it is very possible... Up to now, I saw the white traces as the worn aspect of the aircraft... This Missouri will turn us mad, with so few docs and so many traps and uncertainties... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattlow Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 It looks to me like the whole wing is covered (at least what we can see of it. If the chap far left is standing right against the lowered flap, then the dark area ahead of him looks like a cover which is running along the flap edge for a little then comes out towards us diagonally to meet up with the aileron. Can't see any other way to explain what's going on in that bottom left hand corner of the photo. If it was bitterly cold/snowing you may want to keep the snow (and subsequent ice) from forming around ailerons, flaps and removable gun covers - it'd make life easier to cover it all with canvas or similar. John - many thanks for the exposition on Alclad stamps and the rub plate... Matt 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted March 7, 2018 Author Share Posted March 7, 2018 Hi Matt, maybe you are right, but... do you see any rivet on the fuselage (while it was not covered at all)? I think it is impossible to be sure of anything with such a poor quality photo, and we could say the fuselage was covered too if we did not know it wasn't. More, among the many pics showing the wings, on only one the whole wing seemed to be completely covered by the Surfacer. Personally, I will remain on the 40% wing covered (the work is ever done on my wings) and I just hesitate for the wing roots... But one more time, maybe you are right... Maybe... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattlow Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 Olivier You misunderstand my comment I mean it looks like the wing is covered by a canvas or similar to keep snow/ice off wing. Matt 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted March 7, 2018 Author Share Posted March 7, 2018 Matt, You can see here how difficult for me it is despite my efforts with English speaking... I apologise for that misunderstanding... Olivier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattlow Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 No worries Olivier. I could not do this in French... Matt 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antonio argudo Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 (edited) comparing with the other Missouri picture in profile with our famous kill marks reflection, I see similarities, to me, both pictures could have been taken the same day, the first one with the crew posing in front of Missouri before the maintennance routine, while partialy unwraping the wing canvas covers while there is still snow on the wingroot and fuel intake, the second one, (some minutes later or an hour) the sun is higher, by the angle of how the shadow cast is clear that it is early in the morning, the Missouri has been cleaned from snow or just melted by itself, the snow on the wingroot melted also (still there is a tiny left in the fuel intake) and a crew member gets in the cockpit doing the warm up of the engine. also the frosen puddle in both pictures under the belly matches... cheers Edited March 7, 2018 by antonio argudo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antonio argudo Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 (edited) On 4/3/2018 at 9:30 PM, John Terrell said: Note in the very last picture, which I believe is from the Dallas factory, the whole wing appears to be coated in the Acme Gray Surfacer. Hi John, I'm thinking that maybe the wings are already painted in silver and it's a luminic effect that they look dark like they were in Acme Gray Surface, also the bare fuselage looks dark too, I guess that would fit more with the NAA finish procedure than whole wing covered with Surfacer, just my thought, some images to compare cheers Edited March 7, 2018 by antonio argudo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antonio argudo Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 more p51D wings in asembly line, interesting one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Terrell Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, antonio argudo said: Hi John, I'm thinking that maybe the wings are already painted in silver and it's a luminic effect that they look dark like they were in Acme Gray Surface, also the bare fuselage looks dark too, I guess that would fit more with the NAA finish procedure than whole wing covered with Surfacer, just my thought, some images to compare cheers Yeah, some years ago I had that impression too, but in most of those photos you can directly compare the shade of the wing finish to the finish on the aileron trim tabs and/or rudder, which were all finished in silver paint, and you can clearly tell there is quite a significant difference in shade/value. The photo showing the Mustang production with the Russian-marked AT-6F's in the background is from the Dallas factory - we know this absolutely, because those AT-6F's were produced only at Dallas. The Mustangs in that photo appear to likely be P-51D-20-NT's. As it was applied with spray guns, it certainly wouldn't have been too difficult to cover the whole main wing section with surfacer (even if just one over all coat) - according the P-51 structural repair manual, usually up to six coats of the surfacer had to be applied to fill-in/cover rivets & screws. Perhaps at the Dallas factory, the whole wing was sprayed with surfacer, with the most concentration/multiple coats toward the front of the wing. This photo, which you've also posted a version above, which was clearly taken at the Inglewood factory, when you look closely, actually is showing the same half yellow zinc chromate/half dark grey surfacer application as the other Inglewood production photos show. In this photo, note how dark the yellow zinc chromate rub strip on the inner landing gear door appears, and how much lighter the silver-painted trim tabs and rudder appear. If you look at the area around the wing root, you can see a demarcation between the surfacer applied at the wing root and the slightly lighter shade of the yellow zinc chromate. Out on the wingtip you can see this same demarcation as well, between the zinc chromate at the rear and the dark grey surfacer toward the front. Edited March 8, 2018 by John Terrell 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted March 8, 2018 Author Share Posted March 8, 2018 The outside part of my up and bottom wings is ready for assembly, after the last corrections and improvements. Phew! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles87 Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 I think that the wing in post 675 is from a P-51A/ Mustang 1 as it appears on page 56 of the O'Leary book in the chapter dealing with building Allison Mustangs, and I note that the control column and control tube are already attached to the centre section which was the cockpit floor on the Allison Mustangs. John 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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