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Olivier de St Raph

Missouri Armada P-51D Mustang: documents and partial scratch from the Tamiya 1/48 kit

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2 hours ago, antonio argudo said:

HI Olivier,

I'll try to respond to your questions but just want to share today's jewel picture from Merle Olmsted's fabric relic, our Holy Grail,  I guess the debate is open:drunk:

fabricc.jpg

 

Wow! Thank you for finding this/posting this Antonio. Now when you look at this photo, the color is more suited to being RAF "Dark Green" and removes previous thoughts of "Extra Dark Sea Green". What's also interesting is that this is from 42-103007, which places it within the serial-number span that was painted USAAF olive drab/neutral grey from the factory. You can very clearly see the outline of the factory-applied yellow '7' below the paint added by the 357th (a bit of the yellow paint of the factory-applied '7' appearing through). In the original period photo that is displayed with the fabric, you can see the level of factory-applied paint that came off the aircraft after the protective covering applied prior to shipment was stripped off upon arrival in England (such as the very neat "tape lines" of missing paint around the wing-fuselage fillets). At some point, the USAAF paint was all but completely stripped off of 42-103007 and the aircraft was bare metal with only the top of the fuselage and wings painted RAF green - which would have been the time that this rudder fabric was painted in the field by the 357th. The later P-51B 42-106829 "Joan", which replaced 42-103007, was also painted by the 357th in a similar manner. (At the link posted below, there is one photo of the early/first "Joan" (42-103007) sporting the scheme described, but taken when it was with the 496th Fighter Training Group.)

The remains of 42-103007, which later crashed after being reassigned to the 496th Fighter Training Group, were recovered from an archaeological dig a few years ago and are on display in England: https://www.silksheenphotography.co.uk/resident-aircraft/mustang-42-103007-gallery-history/

Edited by John Terrell

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Hi John,

thanks to you for your colaboration as well mate,  yes I also agree that looks like "dark Green", nice observation about the n7, there are some spots where the paint chipped off and shows the original  factory Olive drab (brownish), here are some magnifications

very interesting  link also John

cheers

fabricco.jpg

fabricco2.jpg

Edited by antonio argudo

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interseting picture with "Butch baby" in the background,  she looks quite dark in the distance although we know she was painted in "Dark Green"

FRE_006102.jpg

Edited by antonio argudo

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Note that with the 'Berlin Express' restoration, Pacific Fighters, the company that did the restoration, they used USAAF olive drab and neutral grey (that they had specially made based on paint chips of original USAAF olive drab and neutral grey), covered on top with factory-type stencils as if it were an aircraft that came from the factory in OD/grey. Somehow they thought this was accurate, even though the original aircraft never had USAAF olive drab/neutral grey - it was one of the later B-models that originally came bare metal from the factory and was painted in the field by the 357th FG.

 

As an added point to this, the P-51D 'Frenesi', restored by Midwest Aero Restorations, is painted with RAF Dark Green over RAF Medium Sea Grey, as all of the well established guides say it was. Both aircraft were displayed at Duxford last year, and you could see the differences in colors/shades. Note the finish on 'Frenesi' is sort of like an "egg shell" finish - not fully flat, but not "glossy", and probably very similar to the finish originally as seen in the 'Missouri Armada' photos. Give the aircraft a good waxing it will shine/reflect. (For those not familiar with the 'Frenesi' restoration, registered N357FG, it is the most recent restoration to be completed by Midwest Aero. It is an absolute clone of the 'Happy Jack's Go Buggy' restoration, down to just about every last detail, with only a few differences, such as having an N-9 reflector gun sight (like the original 'Frenesi' had).)
 

20170708 (198)_Mustangs

 

IMG_9918.jpg

 

Two, of three, Horsemen (P-51B Berlin Express and P-51D Frenesi)

 

35977082185_8a1ca41734_h.jpg

 

35637063902_8e0e6d4037_h.jpg

 

35742196182_77ba3ea36b_h.jpg

 

36172245061_a23fcf5d4c_h.jpg

 

34915833464_dee30b0f02_o.jpg

 

35701009835_bbbd7fe3b3_o.jpg

 

35638084120_2e3e15f2c2_h.jpg

 

Edited by John Terrell

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Interesting stuff John. It would be so great if one of these D-5 recreations could be completed without the fin fillet, as the paint scheme on Frenesi would require for example. Given that the rear fuselage fuel tank is unlikely to be used these days, the handling is unlikely to be affected much. But what a feast for the eyes it would be!

 

Justin

Edited by Bedders

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I noticed that the instrument panel shroud in the restored "frenesi" is the wrong one acording to pictures, it should be the plain model as these pictures show, also  this should be on "Missourii Armada" also as John adviced me

cheers

frenesi.jpg

FRE_003179.jpg

Edited by antonio argudo

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Yes, on the restored P-51 marked as 'Frenesi', there are a lot of late details, just as there are a lot of late details on 'Happy Jack's Go Buggy' which don't match that D-5 scheme either. In both cases, the airframes themselves were manufactured much later than the paint schemes they have (the restored 'Frenesi' airframe was originally a P-51K-15-NT/F-6K-15-NT, and the restored 'Happy Jack's Go Buggy' was originally a P-51D-30-NA - just like how Kermit Weeks' P-51D-30-NT, the last variant of the NAA D-model produced, is painted up as George Preddy's P-51D-5-NA, the first variant of the NAA D-model produced).
 

-The restored 'Frenesi' airframe has the later, enlarged oil access panel on the upper cowl, which was introduced from P-51D-20-NA production onward. Earlier production examples, such as the P-51D-5-NA and P-51D-10-NA, had the earlier, smaller oil access panel (like the P-51B/C). This was due to changes made to the oil tank and added provision of an oil tank dip stick on P-51D-20-NA and later production.

 

- The restored 'Frenesi' airframe has the hydraulic tank access panel in front of the windscreen which wasn't added until P-51D-20-NA and later production. On earlier P-51D's, like the D-5, D-10 and D-15, you had to undo/take off the entire panel in front of the windscreen in order to access the hydraulic tank.

 

- The restored 'Frenesi' airframe has the later instrument panel shroud, introduced on P-51D-25-NA production, rather than the earlier type (as illustrated above by Antonio).

 

- There are also differences in the access panels on the lower cowling, between early P-51D's and later P-51D's (like the restored 'Frenesi'). There were at least three different variations of access panels on the lower cowl panel through P-51D production.

 

- The restored 'Frenesi' airframe has the late, high-mounted armor plate, as seen on P-51D-20-NA and later production, rather than the lower-mounted armor plate as seen on early D's, like the P-51D-5-NA, P-51D-10-NA and P-51D-15-NA.

 

- The canopy on the restored 'Frenesi' is of the style fitted to Dallas-produced D's/K's, rather than the unique, early molded canopy bubble (before the free-blown types) as seen on P-51D-5-NA's and only used on P-51D-5-NA's.

 

- There are a slew of other internal differences, but which can't really be seen from the outside (for instance, there were two different generations/types of gun bay doors, and three different generations/types of ammo bay doors).
 

A couple of interesting points about the 'Frenesi' restoration, however...

 

The P-51D-5-NA had a backup ring & bead sight, in addition to the N-9 reflector gun sight. A good amount of work went into the 'Frenesi' restoration in order to have this detail, including the bead sight mounted out in front of the windscreen. The ring & bead sights were deleted on P-51D-15-NA production (and all later variants). Also, the line painted on the instrument panel, surrounding the six flying instruments, was white on P-51D-5-NA's and P-51D-10-NA's, until it was changed to yellow during P-51D-15-NA production (around the same time that the manifold pressure gauge was changed from the early 75-in range type to the 100-in range type). Even though the instrument panel on the restored 'Frenesi' isn't correct to the D-5-NA (which was essentially the same as the panel from the P-51B/C and a lot different than the later/standard type), the line painted on the instrument panel in the restoration is white, matching the earliest D's. They also did some other interesting little things like, while the aircraft has an electrically-controlled primer, like the later P-51D's, it also has an early manual primer pump installed in the cockpit, just for looks, as used on the earlier D's.

With regard to the dorsal fin fillet, there was a discussion on another board, a number of years ago, with some current Mustang operators/maintainers, which stated that the dorsal fin fillet on the P-51D/K is part the AD's/Airworthiness Directives required by the FAA to fly, so it is a no-go without it. On the contrary, for the P-51B and C, the dorsal fin fillet is only listed under the Technical Orders within the Limited Type Certificate for those aircraft, so it is up to the owner whether or not it is installed and is not ultimately required.

With regard to gun sights - the N-9 reflector gun sight was installed on all P-51D's/K's from the factory, until the K-14 gyro gun sight was first installed from the factory on P-51D-20-NA 44-72227 (and all later Inglewood examples) and P-51D-20-NT 44-12853 (and all later Dallas examples). This is backed-up by both NAA documentation and original blueprint drawings which contain the serial numbers for which the changes apply. The rocket controls and zero-rail rocket stub supported wings were introduced from the factory on P-51D-20-NA 44-72227 (and all later Inglewood examples) and on P-51K-15-NT 44-12553 (and all later Dallas examples), based on NAA documentation and original blueprint drawings as well. It is interesting to note that the two changes are recorded as occurring at the same time during Inglewood production, but that the changes were staggered (the rocket controls/support first, and gun sight change later) on Dallas production.

By the way, I wanted to post as many photos of the restored 'Frenesi' as I did, in order to show how one particular shade of green paint can look so different under different circumstances.

Edited by John Terrell

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thanks John  again for such technical and valued info!!!

I agree with you about  how different  one shade of green can look under various Lightning circumstances, not to mention in a b&w picture...  simply imposible.

the "Frenesi" pictures you posted 7&8 specialy looks  greener and similar to the green shade from the 357th relic.

I found a RAF Hurricane piece of fabric relic from 1942, it is a good match with the Merle Olmsted too.

looks like it is  pointing in this direction  to match "Missouri" with this color "RAF Dark Green" would be the most reasonable if new evidence proves the contrary.

cheers

hurricane_fabric.jpg

Edited by antonio argudo

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8 hours ago, antonio argudo said:

anothe picture of Missourii with the crew

Hi Antonio,

we ever had this doc, numbered as 22.

Interesting to see anyway how the Missouri is worn on that photo...

9 hours ago, John Terrell said:

Now when you look at this photo, the color is more suited to being RAF "Dark Green" and removes previous thoughts of "Extra Dark Sea Green"

Indeed, while it really looked EDSG up to now! This build will turn me mad! Every time you seem to find truth, a new development comes to contradict the previous one. 

 

6 hours ago, John Terrell said:

the P-51D 'Frenesi', restored by Midwest Aero Restorations, is painted with RAF Dark Green over RAF Medium Sea Grey

I thought the Frenesi was painted Extra Dark Sea Green...

Well, I can't make head or tail of it, and I think I will finally go for the RAF Dark Green, as JMV... 

I think we will never be able to be sure of anything on that matter...

6 hours ago, John Terrell said:

Both aircraft were displayed at Duxford last year, and you could see the differences in colors/shades. Note the finish on 'Frenesi' is sort of like an "egg shell" finish - not fully flat, but not "glossy", and probably very similar to the finish originally as seen in the 'Missouri Armada' photos

Thanks John for these very nice pics. So, also on that point (the finish), we have a controversial...  The problem is that we talk about mat, satin and gloss, while there are, as for colors, an infinity of subtle variations... That is why I mentioned above a scale of mat/ gloss. On this scale, 0/10 would be totally mat, 5/10 would be satin and 10/10 would be lacquer mirror finish. The question is: where was the Missouri on that scale? For now, I would say (maybe I am wrong) between 5,5 and 7/10, what the docs seem to confirm imho. I don't think a more mat surface (less than 5,5) could give this mirror effect we have on the doc 20.

Of course, I am not an expert...

 

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5 hours ago, Bedders said:

It would be so great if one of these D-5 recreations could be completed without the fin fillet

Sorry again for my ignorance, but what do you mean by "fin fillet". I often read that mention without understanding...

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I made this comparison restored Frenesi/ Missouri and it shows imho that the Missouri Green was more gloss than the restored Frenesi. If we consider the Frenesi is at 5/10 (satin) on the scale, the Missouri would be about 6,5, probably...

M7KOnv.png

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 Olivier, the  fin fillet  is the wedge shaped piece added to the front of the vertical stabilizer(rudder). When the fuselage was cut down for the bubble canopy, the aircraft lost some directional stability. The fillet was added to reduce the problem. Post #515 has examples of the different styles of fin fillet.
 On the p-51 in post #519 (which has no fin fillet), I do not see a partial repaint, this looks like the paint is oxidizing, like when you brush against an old, faded red car and come away with a red streak on your shirt. The wing tips and the front of the horizontal tail surfaces are shiny where the mechanics would have been pushing. the wings are shiny on the inside and below the gun bay doors, areas where the mechanics, fuel handlers and armorers would be.
 
Keep up the fine work,
Garry c 

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My 2 big concerns here regarding colour are:

 

1) To measure colour we need a controlled light source of known temperature and strength, and, we need to control the angle observed from. Without these fixed, the exact same camera and if applicable film roll will give different results looking at the same paint every time.

 

 

2) WHY would there be stocks of Extra Dark Sea Green available for the USAAF to use? Who ordered it in the first place and why? By and large it was a colour we did not use. I really struggle to visualise a scenario whereby the RAF left paint stocks of a colour they likely never had delivered to stores there.

 

When the USA was building Mustangs for the UK, the Ministry of Aircraft Production agreed that ANA613 Olive Drab could be used as the substitute for RAF Dark Green. They're not dissimilar shades and would be the natural choice given that choice between Dark Green and Extra Dark Sea Green.

 

By my logic, it's far more likely the RAF had stores of Dark Green to leave behind for the USAAF to use.

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8 hours ago, antonio argudo said:

the instrument panel shroud in the restored "frenesi" is the wrong one acording to pictures, it should be the plain model as these pictures show, also  this should be on "Missourii Armada" also as John adviced me

Can you precise this, please, Antonio?

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53 minutes ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

By my logic, it's far more likely the RAF had stores of Dark Green to leave behind for the USAAF to use.

Thanks a lot Jamie. Your post confirms me in the intention to apply the RAF Dark Green as a base coat. And what about the bottom? Medium Sea Grey seems to be the most probable, do you agree?

Olivier

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12 minutes ago, Olivier de St Raph said:

Thanks a lot Jamie. Your post confirms me in the intention to apply the RAF Dark Green as a base coat. And what about the bottom? Medium Sea Grey seems to be the most probable, do you agree?

Olivier

 

That would seem a sensible combination to me :)

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On 25.02.2018 at 9:13 AM, John Terrell said:

- There are also differences in the access panels on the lower cowling, between early P-51D's and later P-51D's (like the restored 'Frenesi'). There were at least three different variations of access panels on the lower cowl panel through P-51D production.

This is lower cowling panel for D-5/D-10/ D-15 models.

40477285011_6a93f9364d_o.jpg

 

and this type was introduced on D-20 model.

40477284261_354d2a2ef7_b.jpg

 

Tamiya's layout represents D-25 and D-30 panels and even such representation is just slightly similar to real thing, so you need to rescribe this section completely.

Edited by Fencer-1
grammar

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thanks Fencer, really good reference material which I was not aware of, this also concerns my 1/32 build of the same aircraft, here is the 1/32  lower cowling panel represented by Tamiya, so I guess I should be filling and rescribing some panels now...

cheers

 

panel.jpg

Edited by antonio argudo

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8 hours ago, Olivier de St Raph said:

Can you precise this, please, Antonio?

Hi Olivier, the IP shroud is what covers the instrument panel, as John said on the early model is plain, so in the tamiya kit is easy to fix this, just by removing the 2 lumps.

cheers

olu.jpg

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I also noticed there is a subtle red shade difference in the spiner, this should be due to the replacement of the front part as the rear part matches the checkered nose saturation

spiner.jpg

Edited by antonio argudo

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First of all, I want to thank all of you for your great contribution to this thread, turning it imho into a real reference one about the P-51D-10-NA of the 357th FG.

There are many traps because of the many changes and updates on this aircraft, and, thanks to you, I (and with me, the readers, next builders of this thread) should avoid some of them.

Now, I would like to have your opinion about the gear wells, because I know it is also a matter of debate regarding the inside color. Some pics would be welcome too, as for the underbody on P-51D-10-NA...

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On ‎25‎/‎02‎/‎2018 at 6:47 AM, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

My 2 big concerns here regarding colour are:

 

1) To measure colour we need a controlled light source of known temperature and strength, and, we need to control the angle observed from. Without these fixed, the exact same camera and if applicable film roll will give different results looking at the same paint every time.

 

 

2) WHY would there be stocks of Extra Dark Sea Green available for the USAAF to use? Who ordered it in the first place and why? By and large it was a colour we did not use. I really struggle to visualise a scenario whereby the RAF left paint stocks of a colour they likely never had delivered to stores there.

 

When the USA was building Mustangs for the UK, the Ministry of Aircraft Production agreed that ANA613 Olive Drab could be used as the substitute for RAF Dark Green. They're not dissimilar shades and would be the natural choice given that choice between Dark Green and Extra Dark Sea Green.

 

By my logic, it's far more likely the RAF had stores of Dark Green to leave behind for the USAAF to use.

I think dark green is the way to go, and it is far more likely there was dark green around. But that's not logic, just an assessment of what's likely. But if there was extra dark sea green around, surely any RAF stores master would leave that behind before leaving dark green behind? And if some annoying Yank came along and asked me for green paint, I would give him the stuff I knew I wouldn't be using - extra dark sea green rather than dark green. The military in war-time and in peace is usually very reluctant to part with stuff that might be needed, particularly stuff that senior officers might require to spruce up things before even more senior officers visit. So IF there was a green around that wasn't dark green, wouldn't that be the one left behind or handed out? You wouldn't use limited space on a lorry fir paint you don't need and leave behind paint you will need if you are moving airfield. 

 

And if extra dark sea green was produced but little used, there might be a fair but around?

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I think I have understood something about the mirror effect: look at these Old Crow pics, taken the same day:

19Bqu8.jpg

 

7dcC4H.jpg

 

What I mean is:

a satin surface facing another one = a glossy surface! (satin + satin = gloss) creating an optical illusion... This completing the excellent Antonio's demo in the post#592, using C. Baltrinic model.

I go on thinking however that the Missouri was bit more glossy than the Frenesi (see my post#613 above), and I will use the great Frenesi pics we have (thanks John!) as a reference taking that in account...

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