Totally Mad Olivier Posted February 18, 2018 Author Share Posted February 18, 2018 Oh! John, look at that, it's funny, we have exactly the same number of likes! P.S: in what part of France do you live? I suppose you speak french... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antonio argudo Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 (edited) Hi Olivier, the data block ,it can be seen and read clearly in post 488, in "Desert rat" Mustang picture Edited February 18, 2018 by antonio argudo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antonio argudo Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 5 hours ago, Olivier de St Raph said: So, Antonio, unlike what I thought, these pics (doc 20 and 23) of the Missouri would have been done end of 1944 or at the latest in January of 1945? yes Olivier, that is the logical assumption given the info 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silberpferd Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 5 hours ago, Olivier de St Raph said: I found on the net that the Jolie Hélène was a P-51D-5-NT s/n 44-11222 of the 368th Fighter Squadron, 359th Fighter Group. What were the differences between such a version and the P-51D-10-NA the Missouri was? Did these differences affect the outside? A reply to that question would allow me to know in what measure the great pics we have of the Jolie Hélène may be used as a reference for the Missouri, as we have so few docs for the latter. I would say that Jolie Hélène and Missouri Armada are pretty similar. One more detail regarding the tail: this small access panel, present on both sides, is related to the tail warning radar, which was not installed on Missouri Armada, so it should disappear. More wax anyone? Laurent 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antonio argudo Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 (edited) I posted this before (321 post) , the official procedure document from North American Aviation for the maintenance of the finish on the wings, so pumice powder was used to polish the camouflage wings until smooth to the finger tips! , wax could be too an option on field I guess cheers Edited February 18, 2018 by antonio argudo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted February 18, 2018 Author Share Posted February 18, 2018 Dear chaps, looking again at this doc 20 of the Missouri, I still have a doubt about the shining. Here is why: We have indeed a very glossy looking in this area but the rest of the wing looks just semi mat. Considering that the engine is running (we can't see the helix), the aircraft was probably in maintenance before flying, the wings tanks filled. Couldn't this just be fuel coming from the fuel vents, precisely located where we have the glossy surface? If we compare this pic with the one Laurent brings in his post#504, we can see the difference: indisputably, the whole wing is shining on this Hellcat (am I right?) while only a portion is so on the Missouri... Conclusion: I could finally carefully choose the semi mat option suggested by John... and why not representing this glossy surface in this area?? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles87 Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 Hi Olivier, we have lived about 55km NW of Limoges for 12 years now, and I speak enough French to get by. I am nowhere near fluent yet, but still learning slowly. Cheers John 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted February 18, 2018 Author Share Posted February 18, 2018 6 minutes ago, Biggles87 said: I am nowhere near fluent yet, but still learning slowly. like me in english... Reading the O'Leary book will be an effort for me, even if thanks to Britmodeller, I could improve quite a lot... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted February 18, 2018 Author Share Posted February 18, 2018 1 hour ago, silberpferd said: One more detail regarding the tail: this small access panel, present on both sides, is related to the tail warning radar, which was not installed on Missouri Armada, so it should disappear. You are right, Laurent, and I am gonna remove that all now. Thanks!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antonio argudo Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 (edited) another posibility could be that the wings were partialy repainted to hide the invasion stripes and therefore different types of reflection, here in this example you can see clearly how the different greens shines, look at the last canopy window connects to the fuselage just where there is a small anntena and the disruption of the shine is very evident! chers Edited February 18, 2018 by antonio argudo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted February 18, 2018 Author Share Posted February 18, 2018 The Magic Dust is a good product that allows to sand immediately the mix cyano/ powder. Combined with the cyano, it is a very good filler imho. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antonio argudo Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 15 minutes ago, antonio argudo said: another posibility could be that the wings were partialy repainted to hide the invasion stripes and therefore different types of reflection, here in this example you can see clearly how the different greens shines, look at the last canopy window connects to the fuselage just where there is a small anntena and the disruption of the shine is very evident! chers another thought is that older layers of green fade with the sun and elements turning more yellowish and clear tone and loosing the gloosiness in to more opaque finish , in opposite the new layers of fresh green were darker and glossier, that makes sense? cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antonio argudo Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 more clear here cheers 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted February 18, 2018 Author Share Posted February 18, 2018 The wrong small panel Laurent talked about has been removed (on the left side for now). The other one has been replaced by a more realistic one, with the small relief we can see on the doc 138c, and a better shape. The rivets are a matter of concern. I am not experienced in doing such rivets lines, and I hope my rivets will remain visible after the paint job. Maybe my coat of XF-23, airbrushed, was not thinned enough, but I feel the rivets tend to disappear with this coat... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antonio argudo Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 (edited) by John Terrell: Attached to this post are a set of drawings I have made of these different variations of the P-51D/K dorsal fin fillet. The riveted -1 and the -3 drawings are copied straight from the original NAA engineering drawings, while the spot-welded -1 and -2 drawings are deduced from photographs. Feel free to download the set of drawings for full resolution. I will provide photographic views of these different fillets in the replies below. If new information comes to light to help fill in the voids even more, I will update this information. The first iteration of the P-51D/K dorsal fin fillet (DFF), which I will refer to simply as the -1, was made up of two skins, spliced together, with a curved spine. The only NAA drawing I have of the -1 DFF (109-25001 - early) shows it as a riveted-only assembly, but all of the evidence I've seen points to all of the -1 fillets installed on both Dallas and Inglewood D's/K's as being spot-welded assemblies. Further reason to believe this is that the dorsal fin fillets produced for the earlier P-51B and P-51C, at the same time as the earliest P-51D DFF's, were also spot-welded, as were all of the DFF versions that came after the "-1" DFF. Interestingly, however, the DFF's manufactured by Commonwealth Aircraft in Australia, for their Mustangs, all perfectly match this 109-25001-early drawing, as being riveted-only -1 DFF's. The -1 DFF is found on all USAAF P-51D-5-NA's and P-51D-5-NT's that had them (those with in-theatre retrofits and factory installs), all P-51D-10-NA production, early P-51K-1-NT's (confirmed up to at least 44-11372), and all but the very last few of P-51D-15-NA production (confirmed up to at least 44-15745). As mentioned previously, the riveted version of the -1 DFF shows up on CAC Mustangs. The second iteration of the P-51D/K DFF, which I refer to as the -2, was made up, outwardly, of four skins spliced together, rather than just two as before, but still keeping the same profile as the -1 DFF. The -2 DFF was a spot-welded assembly that only shows up on Dallas-produced Mustangs and never appears on any Inglewood Mustangs. I have no NAA drawings for this DFF, but based outwardly, appears to be a revised version of the -1 for added strength (there is clearly some additional internal structure added). I've noted that there is some variation within the -2 DFF, likely due to the pace of wartime production, where the vertical position of the joint/line between the upper rear skin and the lower rear skin moved up and down throughout the span of production of this fillet. The -2 DFF is found on late P-51K-1-NT's (confirmed from at least 44-11433 onward), all P-51K-5-NT production, all P-51K-10-NT production, and early P-51K-15-NT's (confirmed up to at least 44-12653). The third and last iteration of the P-51D/K DFF, referred to as the -3, was made up of only two skins, spliced together, with a straight spine and spot-welded together. One can see how this fillet was easier to manufacturer than the previous versions and was now standardized again between both Inglewood and Dallas production. The -3 is found on the last few P-51D-15-NA's (confirmed from at least 44-15750 onward), on late P-51K-15-NT's (confirmed from at least 44-12733 onward), and all P-51D-20-NA, P-51D-20-NT, P-51D-25-NA, P-51D-25-NT, P-51D-30-NA and P-51D-30-NT production. I'm still on the lookout for any photographs that might show the tails of: P-51K-1-NT's 44-11373 -to- 44-11433 P-51D-15-NA's 44-15746 -to- 44-15749 P-51K-15-NT's 44-12654 -to- 44-12752 (P-51D-5-NA 44-13257, kept by NAA and the NACA for testing, has had a -3 DFF ever since its NAA/NACA testing days.) Edited February 18, 2018 by antonio argudo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted February 18, 2018 Author Share Posted February 18, 2018 41 minutes ago, antonio argudo said: more clear here Very clear indeed. But on the Missouri, the gloss area does not correspond to a precise limit, imho. So the assumption of a new coat to hide the invasion strips (I think they didn't worry about these strips, and they were kept under the fuselage) seems to me less probable than the fuel coming from the vents, giving a glossy fuel slick. Cheers Olivier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted February 18, 2018 Author Share Posted February 18, 2018 Very impressive doc about the dorsal fin, Antonio, again a great contribution to the thread, thanks a lot!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles87 Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 The instructions for the Revell 1/32 Mustang show two different shades of green on the wings, again presumably relatively fresh paint where the invasion stripes were over painted against the faded olive drab ( or RAF green ) on the outer wing areas. I have a pot of 'faded olive drab ' which I use for areas like fabric covered control surfaces on WW II olive drab aircraft. John 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antonio argudo Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 (edited) this image confirms my theory, see the difference between the glossy and matt due to a partial repaint, and matches exactly the spot of the wing in the Missouri picture cheers Edited February 18, 2018 by antonio argudo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted February 18, 2018 Author Share Posted February 18, 2018 3 new docs added to the collection: 1- Enlargement of the dorsal fin on a P 51D-10-NA 2- The great pic that Antonio just brought us. I admit that finally, this assumption is maybe the right one. And what John mentioned above about the Revell instructions gets the duck to the pond. However... ... 3- This third doc, brought by Antonio above, showing the fuel vents (also in the gloss area) is another assumption. Difficult to be sure, but the conclusion is nearly the same: we had definitely on the Missouri Armada 2 different levels of shining (and of shade??) on the wings. And this is of course very important. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antonio argudo Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 (edited) Hi olivier, what you pointed in the last picture 142 are not fuel vents, they have to do with electrical function, cant remember the exact name right now but I will find out, the fuel intake is on the right side near the gun panel cheers Edited February 18, 2018 by antonio argudo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silberpferd Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 1 hour ago, antonio argudo said: Hi olivier, what you pointed in the last picture 142 are not fuel vents, they have to do with electrical function, cant remember the exact name right now but I will find out, the fuel intake is on the right side near the gun panel cheers In fact, those are the bolts securing the tanks inside the wings. Laurent 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted February 18, 2018 Author Share Posted February 18, 2018 Dear chaps, Aren't the flapper valves fuel vents?? Furthermore, I admit I am not totally convinced by the doc 141. Ok, there is a more recent paint in the inside part of the wing, but I don't see the same mirror effect with a really glossy surface on this inside part of the wing. More docs (color, if possible) would be necessary imho to be sure... Cheers 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antonio argudo Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Olivier de St Raph said: Furthermore, I admit I am not totally convinced by the doc 141. Ok, there is a more recent paint in the inside part of the wing, but I don't see the same mirror effect with a really glossy surface on this inside part of the wing. More docs (color, if possible) would be necessary imho to be sure... hi Olivier, you are making me work hard to prove this !!! well, after all have been said, I think the Missouri picture dont really had a mirror like finish even though the reflection is very evident, I think the angular position of the sun produce an increased effect reflection in the wingroot area of the picture (following the shadows proyection) and the high contrast of the picture itself (shadows and whites too high) , I think Missouri had indeed gloss/satin finish (which was the usual) in the wingroot area and an old fadedlayer on the rest of the wing. to prove this look at this video of Don Gentile, with a similar finish aircraft, you can see in the second 00:10 of the video how it reflects the pilot's hand on the wing surface when he drops from the cockpit, even more reflection on the wings can be seen when he is helped to climb on the cockpit second 1:02, and more like that though the rest of the video, and also funny how the crew memnber slide his foot through the wingroot. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0_xiT-SBBI and here some magnificent pictures of the satin/gloss finish : if all this eveidences doesn't convince you, I'm giving up cheers Edited February 18, 2018 by antonio argudo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antonio argudo Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 other examples of satin/glossy finish on olive drab camoflage on the wings 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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