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Missouri Armada P-51D Mustang: documents and partial scratch from the Tamiya 1/48 kit


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4 hours ago, silberpferd said:

those are the bolts securing the tanks inside the wings

you are correct Laurent, thanks for the clarification,  so if they are attachment points  I assume  no fuel leaking can come out from there,  Olivier the flapper valve you mention in your diagram, I guess should be inside the fuel tank itself, my thought...

some reference related:

cheers

Warbird_Tech_05_P51_Mustang_pdf_2.jpg

Squadron_Signal_Walk_Around_n_07_P_51_D_

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1000 thanks, Antonio, for these praiseworthy efforts! 

Your docs are one more time great and some of them will be added as soon as possible in the "best of"...

I had thought, like you, to a possible increased effect due to the angle of view with the sun.

Anyway, we can be quite sure now that the finish of the Missouri should be satin and not mat with a more glossy area in the internal quarter of the wing.

I am not sure that this more glossy surface has nothing to see with the fuel, even if I was wrong about the fuel vents. 

Just a few excess fuel when filling up (and for a maximum autonomy, they filled probably as much as possible), wiped each time, could create imho this mirror effect on a satin surface.

Notice furthermore that, on most of your excellent docs, rivets are visible on the rear part of the wings ;)

A fascinating debate, anyway, and a strong will for truth that we all share! 

 

Cheers

 

Olivier

 

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22 hours ago, Biggles87 said:

 

The instructions for the Revell 1/32 Mustang show two different shades of green on the wings, again presumably relatively fresh paint where the invasion stripes were over painted against the faded olive drab ( or RAF green ) on the outer wing areas

 

Hi John,

could you reproduce the Revell instructions, please? It would be interesting and probably useful, as the only pic up to now on which I could see this clear difference, except the Missouri, is the doc 141 above.

Cheers

Olivier

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I was just made aware of this thread by Antonio, and I must say I have really enjoyed looking through the entire thread and seeing the progress of this great build and the research and sharing of information pertaining to this specific aircraft.

A recent question posed by Olivier was what were the external differences/similarities between the P-51D-5-NT 'Jolie Helene' and the P-51D-10-NA 'Missouri Armada'.

 

As has already been discussed, in the immediate post VE-Day pictures of 'Jolie Helene', you can see the in-field modification/addition of the kit-supplied APS-13 tail warning radar antenna on the tail (and the indicator light above the instrument panel shroud). In the era of photos we have of 'Missouri Armada' (January '45 and earlier) that piece of hardware had yet to come on the scene/was not yet being added. (From the factory, the APS-13 tail warning radar wasn't installed until mid-late production P-51D-20-NA's, which they themselves didn't begin entering combat until around March 1945 at the earliest, around the same time you start to see the in-field modifications/additions of the radar set.)

 

On the P-51D-5-NT 'Jolie Helene', it has a clear/white recognition light on the spine, just aft of the AN-104 antenna mast. This detail was only present on the P-51D-5-NA, P-51D-5-NT and P-51K-1-NT variants. This light was not present on the P-51D-10-NA (such as 'Missouri Armada') or later variants.

 

As my dorsal fin fillet ("DFF") drawings/information shows, which Antonio has posted earlier, both the P-51D-5-NT 'Jolie Helene' and P-51D-10-NA 'Missouri Armada' had the -1 spot-welded DFF. Note that there was only one vertical panel line on this fillet and  most all of the other surface detail was spot welds and screw fasteners.

 

(Speaking of spot welds, a lot of what appears might be smaller rivets all around the cowling panels, and around areas of access panels, etc., are actually spot welds as well.)

 

The elevators on 'Missouri Armada' were fabric-covered. That is the way they were on all P-51D's and K's until the switch to metal-covered elevators came on much later variants. Eventually, a Technical Order was issued around March 1945 to convert the fabric elevators to metal-covered, but of course that took place later/after the time period we're dealing with on 'Missouri Armada'.

 

The gun camera port (as seen on the inboard left wing leading edge) on 'Missouri Armada' was circular, rather than the square camera port as seen on later variants. The gun camera port/opening was circular until it was changed and made square on P-51D-15-NA and P-51K-10-NT production (and all later examples).

 

As discussed earlier too, the battery vent scoop on the left side of the nose would have to be deleted to be accurate, as it wasn't present on these early Mustangs. The battery vent scoop on the nose came about when the radio/battery configuration, in the aft cockpit section, changed on very late-production P-51D's - when the SCR-695 IFF radio set was added on production variants like the P-51D-30-NA, P-51D-25-NT and P-51D-30-NT. This forced the battery to be relocated from the aft cockpit to the engine bay, and thus the battery vent scoop on the nose had to be added.

 

As also discussed earlier, the gyro gun sights on both 'Jolie Helene' and 'Missouri Armada' are field modifications, as both aircraft originally came from the factory with N-9 reflector gun sights. Note that if you have the aircraft fitted with a gyro gun sight, like the K-14, make sure the throttle lever is the extended/later "bicycle grip" type as well, since the two go hand-in-hand together. It is hard to see in the photos of 'Missouri Armada', but what appears to be a K-14 could also be one of the US Navy or British/RAF equivalents too (they sourced them from wherever they could find them, and all of these different variations of gyro gun sights show up in these aircraft, added in the field, in late '44 and '45.)


With regard to the paint scheme/markings. The P-51D-10-NA 44-14789, which would become 'Missouri Armada', arrived factory-fresh in bare metal with silver wings, just as all USAAF P-51D's and K's did (none of them were ever painted OD/grey from the factory). In 1944, most 357th FG pilots didn't like the idea of flying these new, shiny bare metal Mustangs into combat, and painted them in the field with the paint they had available in order to be camouflaged like their older planes were (the P-51B/C's produced prior to the switch to deleting camouflage paint at the factories). Leiston, where the 357th FG was based, had been a former RAF airfield before the 357th moved in, and the RAF left behind a large stockpile of RAF paint which the 357th FG used to paint their airplanes with. According to the late Merle Olmsted, who was a 357th FG crew chief and one of the greatest historians of the Group, they used whatever RAF paint they could find within this stockpile that most closely matched USAAF Olive Drab and Neutral Grey. Evidence points to both RAF Dark Green and RAF Extra Dark Sea Green being used by the 357th FG in-place of USAAF Olive Drab, as well as RAF Ocean Grey, RAF Sky Grey and RAF Medium Sea Grey in-place of USAAF Neutral Grey. This original piece of fabric from a 357th FG P-51B/C shows they used RAF Extra Dark Sea Green on this one: http://www.cebudanderson.com/fabric.htm

 

Because of this, the airplanes painted by the 357th FG weren't all the same and had all different combinations of these known RAF paints. Based on the B&W photos of 'Missouri Armada', I would think that the aircraft could have been RAF Extra Dark Sea Green over RAF Ocean Grey. 'Passion Wagon', on the other hand, was likely RAF Dark Green over RAF Sky Grey, based on all of the wartime photos. The very authentically restored 'Frenesi' appears to be finished in RAF Dark Green over RAF Medium Sea Grey, as the original is thought to have been. The restored P-51B 'Old Crow', which was restored/painted using Merle Olmsted's expertise, is painted RAF Extra Dark Sea Green over RAF Sky Grey, as the original is thought to have been.

 

On 'Missouri Armada', the only markings that remained original to when it was manufactured were the stars & bars, everything else was painted in the field. The aircraft was built too late/arrived too late to have ever had the D-Day invasion stripes applied, though it may have at an earlier stage had the white recognition bands/stripes applied to the wings and horizontal tail surfaces, as so many others were, but obviously if that were the case they were painted over by late 1944/by the time the photos were taken of the aircraft. As seen in the period photos, it did have the partial white/black/white/black/white IFF stripes (some would say "invasion stripes") on the bottom of the fuselage. The reds and yellows used in the markings would have come from the RAF supply as well. The original factory-applied stencils, including the data block on the side of the fuselage, were of course painted over, but the 357th added some of the stencils back on, such as the data block information and the "Ground Here" stencils around the grounding plugs (near each of the fuel caps). There was no use of "glossy" paint by the 357th, but some ground crews were known to wax/polish their aircraft. Any areas where aviation fuel would soak in, the RAF paint would come off quite easily (as can be seen around the fuselage fuel tank cap and a few areas below).

 

If referencing Mustang restorations for accuracy/authenticity in the future, the P-51D 'Sierra Sue II' and P-51C 'Lope's Hope 3rd' are the best. They are the most accurate/authentic of any Mustang restoration to-date to a WWII-era 1944/1945 Mustang, and are absolutely spot on, down to the smallest detail. Other great ones are of course 'Upupa Epops', 'Frenesi', 'Happy Jack's Go Buggy' and 'Little Rebel', but don't match the same level as those first two. Of course some various problems arise with using most all other restorations as source material. In one particular photo posted earlier in this thread of a close-up of the control stick locking mechanism, there is a pulley that can be seen in the forefront of the photo which was never there originally - only added in that and some other modern restorations where dual controls have been added for the backseat passenger. In other cases, like the restored P-51B 'Berlin Express', it may be generally a very stock restoration, but it is painted with USAAF Olive Drab and Neutral Grey where as it should have been painted with RAF colors like the original was (RAF Extra Dark Sea Green over RAF Sky Grey). Even still, some of the mostly authentic examples, like 'Happy Jack's Go Buggy', are a conglomeration of details from various production versions and don't perfectly represent any particular variant that ever originally existed, though do provide an overall very high level of authentic detailing (for instance, with 'Happy Jack's Go Buggy', it is painted to represent a P-51D-5-NA, but the actual airframe is that of a P-51D-30-NA, and the overall configuration/details of the restored aircraft most closely match that of a P-51D-25-NA (really too late for action in the European Theatre)). In the case of 'Sierra Sue II' and 'Lope's Hope 3rd', both were restored, in every detail, to very specific production variants that actually saw service during WWII - 'SSII' is of course an actual WWII combat-vet, restored to just as it originally was in April and May 1945. 'Sierra Sue II' and 'Lope's Hope 3rd' are also the only Mustangs restored using the same original primers and paints of the era - all others have modern paints colored to try and match the original primers/paints.

 

With regard to the Mustang wing, only the first 40% of the wing surface and a bit of the wing tip/extensions on P-51D/K production was filled with putty and sanded smooth - going only as far back as just going beyond covering the skin butt joints/panel lines for which the main wing spar follows, and covering the outer most skin butt joint/panel lines of the wing tip extensions. In this region of the wing covered, there should be no surface detail except for the panel providing access to the landing gear mount, the holes in the bottom of the wing for the jacking post and drop tank connections, link ejectors, mooring rings, etc., and the connection points at the top of both wings for hoisting. For the rest of the wing, one would definitely be able to see surface detail of all of the rivets and panel lines, etc.


Here are a few photos showing the general areas where the wings were filled with putty and sanded smooth. Acme Red Vellutine Glazing putty was used to cover skin butt joints and Acme Gray Surfacer No.53N5 was used to cover any irregularities in this region of the wing. The entire area was then sanded smooth before a coating of silver lacquer was applied. On this restoration ("Sierra Sue II") a modern putty/filler was used.

40358762891_08c23f33f9_o.jpg

 

40358762951_016447c716_o.jpg

 

40358762781_827dcd51ea_o.jpg

 

40358762831_d727bdb6bf_o.jpg

 

Edited by John Terrell
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First of all welcome on the thread John and thank you so much for the very documented post I just began to read because I am working at my pro  cabinet.

I will study all that with a clear head as soon as possible...

Though I read what you write about the putty on the wing and that’s funny, it is precisely what I intended to speak about in my next post. The last Antonio ´s pics show indeed that the rear part of the wings have rivets, while they are missing on the front part.

All the best

Olivier

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Welcome aboard John and thanks for taken my invitation to the party, I have admire your precise and technical  fidelity in your simulators models and specially the Mustang, we even have used your work as reference here, a real fountain of Mustang wisdom, it is such an honor!!

cheers

Edited by antonio argudo
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5 hours ago, John Terrell said:

VE-Day

Sorry John, what is "VE-day"? 

 

5 hours ago, John Terrell said:

it has a clear/white recognition light on the spine, just aft of the AN-104 antenna mast. This detail was only present on the P-51D-5-NA, P-51D-5-NT and P-51K-1-NT variants. This light was not present on the P-51D-10-NA (such as 'Missouri Armada') or later variants.

Ok, I see clearly this light, I will not add it (it is not present on the Tamiya kit).

 

5 hours ago, John Terrell said:

the P-51D-10-NA 'Missouri Armada' had the -1 spot-welded DFF

I was right on this point, enlarging the -1DFF (doc 140)

 

5 hours ago, John Terrell said:

there was only one vertical panel line on this fillet and all of the other surface detail was spot welds and screw fasteners.

I will check this on my build, maybe I have to modify it because I was inspired by the Jolie Hélène when doing the job on the dorsal fin.

 

5 hours ago, John Terrell said:

Speaking of spot welds, a lot of what appears might be smaller rivets all around the cowling panels, and around areas of access panels, etc., are actually spot welds as well.

I don't know how to read this. Can you precise please, maybe with arrows on the pic?

 

5 hours ago, John Terrell said:

The elevators on 'Missouri Armada' were fabric-covered

Sorry for my ignorance again, but I don't see clearly what are these "elevators"...

 

5 hours ago, John Terrell said:

The gun camera port (as seen on the inboard left wing leading edge) on 'Missouri Armada' was circular, rather than the square camera port as seen on later variants

Ok, I understand this, I will change the Tamiya one, squarre instead of circular.

 

5 hours ago, John Terrell said:

the battery vent scoop on the left side of the nose would have to be deleted to be accurate

you mean the detail I removed on post#474, after the suggestion of Antonio on post#466 (p. 19)? or is it something else?

 

5 hours ago, John Terrell said:

As also discussed earlier, the gyro gun sights on both 'Jolie Helene' and 'Missouri Armada' are field modifications, as both aircraft originally came from the factory with N-9 reflector gun sights. Note that if you have the aircraft fitted with a gyro gun sight, like the K-14, make sure the throttle lever is the extended/later "bicycle grip" type as well, since the two go hand-in-hand together

first thanks to confirm that the K14 was a field modif on the Missouri, among others. But I don't know what is the "extended bicycle grip throttle lever". Can you precise this please?

 

5 hours ago, John Terrell said:

what appears to be a K-14 could also be one of the US Navy or British/RAF equivalents too

If so, do we have the same "throttle lever" (to precise) than with the K 14?

5 hours ago, John Terrell said:

With regard to the paint scheme/markings. The P-51D-10-NA 44-14789, which would become 'Missouri Armada', arrived factory-fresh in bare metal with silver wings, just as all USAAF P-51D's and K's did (none of them were ever painted OD/grey from the factory). In 1944, most 357th FG pilots didn't like the idea of flying these new, shiny bare metal Mustangs into combat, and painted them in the field with the paint they had available in order to be camouflaged like their older planes were (the P-51B/C's produced prior to the switch to deleting camouflage paint at the factories). Leiston, where the 357th FG was based, had been a former RAF airfield before the 357th moved in, and the RAF left behind a large stockpile of RAF paint which the 357th FG used to paint their airplanes with.

Fascinating! I used to wonder why the Missouri was still camouflaged while the new P 51-D were Bare metal, as mentioned in the O'Leary book and above, now I understand, thanks to you...

 

5 hours ago, John Terrell said:

the airplanes painted by the 357th FG weren't all the same and had all different combinations of these known RAF paints. Based on the B&W photos of 'Missouri Armada', I would think that the aircraft could have been RAF Extra Dark Sea Green over RAF Ocean Grey

Again fascinating infos! 

I have to stop for now the translation of your post, 1000 thanks, we learnt a lot today, and there is still a lot to come!!

 

Cheers

 

Olivier

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22 minutes ago, antonio argudo said:

I decided that I will doing my 1/32 Mustang as "missouri armada" also, a big brother for your build lol it will be fun anyway!

Hi Antonio,

with all what we begin to have about that "Missouri", I think you should do an incredible 1/32 build!

 

Cheers

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What 1/32 kit will you use? Revell? Tamiya? ZM?

Matt said the Revell was very good and not too expensive...

This recalls me that I should go and have a look at his thread, but the time is missing. I will take advantage of my holidays, far from my workbench (from Wednesday) to read and learn still more...

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1 hour ago, Olivier de St Raph said:

 

Sorry for my ignorance again, but I don't see clearly what are these "elevators"...

 

The horizontal equivalent of the rudder. Metal elevator (from walkaround: http://www.grubby-fingers-aircraft-illustration.com/mustang_walkaround.html):

www.grubby-fingers-aircraft-illustration.com/images/Mustang_VH-JUC_14_med.jpg

 

I could not find any existing P-51Ds with the fabric covered elevators - I guess most or all got the conversion to metal without thought for modellers! I did find a picture of a P-51C with the fabric version, but I can't seem to find it again. You can see the ribbed structure, although not as prominent as on the rudder. I'm trying to convert the Airfix kit to a P-51D-5-NA, and consider what to do about it - I've also seen it claimed that the fabric would be so taut you'd barely see any ribs anyway. 

Edited by Torbjorn
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Hi Olivier,
 

In response to some of your questions:
 

"VE-Day" refers to "Victory in Europe Day", or the official day that the war in Europe ended - May 8, 1945. The fantastic color photos of 'Jolie Helene' posted earlier in this thread were taken around this date. The biggest clue to this fact is that the squadron codes are applied underneath the left wing of the aircraft, and this wasn't done until after VE-Day/May 8, 1945. Thus, the aircraft represents the way it looked at that specific moment in time. Throughout 1944 and 1945 there were continuous improvements and updates introduced into P-51D's, both from the factory and in the field/in-use. The photos of 'Jolie Helene' show one of the earliest variant P-51D's, but which has received some upgrades during its service time up to May 1945. We know that Johnny England ended his tour in January 1945, and 'Missouri Armada' was reassigned to another pilot and given a new name/identity. Thus, we know for sure that all of the photos that can be found of the aircraft as 'Missouri Armada' would have to have been taken no later than around January 1945, and to depict the aircraft as 'Missouri Armada' means depicting an aircraft in a configuration no later than January 1945. This means that the aircraft would have still had fabric-covered elevators, and explains why there would be no tail warning radar set yet added.

Having looked back your fantastic work again, yes, the throttle lever that you have in the model is correct for a K-14/gyro-type gun sight, and yes, you did already remove the battery vent scoop, so all is good there as well. ; )
 

With regard to the term "elevators", it is the horizontal tail control surfaces. According to North American Aviation documentation (and confirmed in photos), from the factory the elevators were covered in fabric on all P-51D's/K's until they were all metal beginning on P-51D-25-NA 44-73827 (and all later Inglewood production) and on P-51K-15-NT 44-12753 and P-51D-20-NT 44-12853 (and all later Dallas production). In February or March 1945, a Technical Order was issued to convert all in-service P-51D's and K's to metal-covered elevators, after the point in time of 'Missouri Armada'.

Here are some photos of fabric-covered Mustang elevators. Note that three of these examples all happen to be largely unrestored P-51K-10-NT's. The last P-51D/K that was flying with fabric-covered elevators was the former The Fighter Collection P-51D "Twilight Tear", which is now the P-51K-10-NT "Fragile but Agile". When the aircraft was most recently restored and painted as "Fragile but Agile" (as at least a portion of that airframe was found to originally have been), the elevators put back on the aircraft are now metal-covered, so currently there are no P-51D/K's flying with fabric-covered elevators (though all of the A-36's, P-51A's and P-51B/C's flying today do have the fabric-covered elevators - any of which provide a proper reference too).

 

26495544458_055f771b25_o.jpg

 

39469643035_64b7b81821_o.jpg

 

26495546588_f1d8788360_o.jpg

 

39469644285_a3277ebb7e_o.jpg


39469643235_63c43b51e6_o.png

 

This is the bottom surface of a P-51 fabric-covered elevator, in which you can see the venting/drain holes along the trailing edges, which of course the top surfaces don't have.

 

26495544858_209e4ed7bf_o.png

 

Edited by John Terrell
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interesting picture, Captain John B. England looks on as ground crew attend to his crashed P-51 Mustang (G4-X, serial number 44013738) Handwritten caption on reverse: 'G4-x crash- 10 Oct '44- John England.'

 

miss.jpg

 

 

miss2.jpg

 

Edited by antonio argudo
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Well, chaps, I must say I am a bit submerged by so many new infos, all fascinating!

Thanks a lot, John, you ever replied to my first questions while I even have not yet read all what you wrote in the first one (my english is average but I have to translate many technical words to avoid misunderstandings).

I will come-back on the debrief of this first amazing post#529, but first, as I just read your replies on post#540:

1) thanks about the "VE-Day", I just knew (as everyone) the D-Day

2) 

9 hours ago, John Terrell said:

The biggest clue to this fact is that the squadron codes are applied underneath the left wing of the aircraft, and this wasn't done until after VE-Day/May 8, 1945

I don't see this squadron codes underneath the left wing on the Jolie Hélène, unless they are the very big letters: 

sxAkDo.jpg

 

3) 

9 hours ago, John Terrell said:

This means that the aircraft would have still had fabric-covered elevators, and explains why there would be no tail warning radar set yet added.

Ok, now, that's clear for me. I ignored that these elevators were fabric-covered! Concretely, it means representing the ribs Torbjorn mentioned above and that we can see clearly as on this great pic:

rZiAY8.png

 

4) Added to the collection of best docs too, this bottom view (lightened) of the fabric elevators with tiny venting drain holes (0,2 mm drill at 1/48?):

SsZVAE.jpg

 

Well, I still have plenty of questions and pics to add to the "best of", I will do that gradually.

One more time, 1 million thanks John anyway for your kindness and to share your knowledge in this thread!

 

Cheers

 

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13 hours ago, antonio argudo said:

well, look what just I found, a big beautiful  leaking of fuel/oil  coming from the engine panels staining the wings!:o

Thanks Antonio for that great pic showing indeed how a leaking of fuel could create a glossy effect. I would like to have John's interpretation of the mirror effect on the Missouri Armada...

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18 hours ago, John Terrell said:

I would think that the aircraft could have been RAF Extra Dark Sea Green over RAF Ocean Grey. 'Passion Wagon', on the other hand, was likely RAF Dark Green over RAF Sky Grey, based on all of the wartime photos

I made a comparison to check this very important point:

1) I first turned BW the doc 104 (Passion Wagon)

2) I then lightened a bit the doc 23, whose original is a bit dark

3) I then placed both side by side

 

JQSW30.png

 

Conclusion: we can see clearly that the contrast both greens do with the yellow and red grids is very different: low contrast with the Passion Wagon, while we know this aircraft was RAF Dark Green, and on the other hand high contrast with the Missouri, meaning that the latter was very dark (even lightened).

This confirms imho that John was right about the Extra Dark Sea Green. Do you know if such a color is available, or what mix should be done with Tamiya paints to get it? The XF-27 Black Green Tamiya should be quite good, don’t you think?

N.B: more difficult for me to draw conclusions about the underside. Was usually the Ocean grey associated with the Extra Dark Sea Green, or other combinations were they possible (Medium Sea grey, fe)?

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20 hours ago, John Terrell said:

With regard to the Mustang wing, only the first 40% of the wing surface and a bit of the wing tip/extensions on P-51D/K production was filled with putty and sanded smooth - going only as far back as just going beyond covering the skin butt joint/panel line for which the main wing spar follows, and covering the outer most skin butt joint/panel line of the wing tip cap. In this region of the wing covered, there should be no surface detail except for the panel providing access to the landing gear mount, the holes in the bottom of the wing for the jacking post and drop tank connections, link ejectors, mooring rings, etc., and the connection points at the top of both wings for hoisting. For the rest of the wing, one would definitely be able to see surface detail of all of the rivets and panel lines, etc.

Hi John,

Great info, I will follow these indications and will remove the rivets lines on the areas concerned, and of course will leave them on the 60% where they are right. 

Again many thanks to John for closing this fascinating debate!

A question about the rear stabilizers: are there rivets visible on them? Were they partially or totally puttied?

 

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22 hours ago, John Terrell said:

The aircraft was built too late/arrived too late to have ever had the D-Day invasion stripes applied, though it may have at an earlier stage had the white recognition bands/stripes applied to the wings and horizontal tail surfaces, as so many others were, but obviously if that were the case they were painted over by late 1944/by the time the photos were taken of the aircraft. As seen in the period photos, it did have the partial white/black/white/black/white IFF stripes (some would say "invasion stripes") on the bottom of the fuselage

Hi John

Other questions:

1) what difference between D-Day and IFF stripes?

2) and why would they have painted over the D-Day stripes and not over the ones on the fuselage?

3) and now, what is your interpretation of the glossy surface we can see on the internal part of the Missouri wing on the doc 20? Could it be fuel?

4) What varnish should be applied according to you on the Missouri? Do you agree to say we have 2 finish areas, one more glossy (internal part of the wings) and one more flat?

 

Thanks a lot for your help!

 

Olivier

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20 hours ago, John Terrell said:

If referencing Mustang restorations for accuracy/authenticity in the future, the P-51D 'Sierra Sue II' and P-51C 'Lope's Hope 3rd' are the best.

Great pics of the "Sierra Sue II" here:

https://www.google.fr/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwi_y6zepLTZAhWHLsAKHaFTA-kQjhx6BAgAEAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sim-outhouse.com%2Fsohforums%2Fshowthread.php%2F89989-Combat-Vet-P-51D-Sierra-Sue-II-A-New-Benchmark&psig=AOvVaw1aV3bMtjo8anELRwZVbnAG&ust=1519208970741173

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4 hours ago, Olivier de St Raph said:

Conclusion: we can see clearly that the contrast both greens do with the yellow and red grids is very different: low contrast with the Passion Wagon, while we know this aircraft was RAF Dark Green, and on the other hand high contrast with the Missouri, meaning that the latter was very dark (even lightened).

This confirms imho that John was right about the Extra Dark Sea Green

HI Olivier,

I like what you have done with the b&w pictures comparasion but to me is quite risky based on that picture, millions of factors can trick the outcome of the picture,  the contrast between the two pictures is not the same or even the exposure, Missourii picture has too  high whites (missouri Logo) and almost no mid tones or greys, also compare the checker nose, that conclusion is not fair to me,  sadly all pictures available form Missouri are not good quality and not the original ones but copies of copies, I've search obsessibely 357th pictures (posibly all of them available online at the moment and many of them are poor quality and high contrasted, I'm not saying that indeed Missouri could have not been  painted in Dark sea green but at least let's be cautious yet about it, see the picture of passion wago here, very dark also ;)

by the way, it looks like passion wagon had a N9 gunsight here?

pasionwagon.jpg

 

take a look at this great 357th gallery to see what I mean, you will find many dark pictures, http://www.americanairmuseum.com/unit/301

 

also thanks for the link of Sierra sue II, and wonderfull pictures by  fellow John, amazing indeed!!!

cheers

Edited by antonio argudo
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5 hours ago, antonio argudo said:

I like what you have done with the b&w pictures comparasion but to me is quite risky based on that picture, millions of factors can trick the outcome of the picture,  the contrast between the two pictures is not the same or even the exposure, Missourii picture has too  high whites (missouri Logo) and almost no mid tones or greys, also compare the checker nose, that conclusion is not fair to me

Hi Antonio,

I just wanted to confirm John's opinion about the Missouri colors. I admit there is a margin of error doing such comparisons, but the contrast is very different between both greens and the grids, and imho we are here out of the margin of error. Moreover, I suppose John used nearly the same method to conclude that the Missouri had to be Extra Dark Green. I add that I could have used the original pic, but I deliberately lightened it what was not going in the direction of what I wanted to confirm (the contrast is still more important on the original doc 20). On the other hand, I wonder how John could draw a conclusion about the grey of the underside. That is why I asked if the Ocean grey was usually associated to the Extra Dark Green in my post#545...

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