RF-4C vs RF-4E

[bar side]

As part of a pack of 1/48 decals I got a set of USAF RF-4C decals & quite fancy building one.  So far it looks like Testors did an RF-4B or C kit and Italeri do an RF-4E.  So my question - how close is an E to a C?  Different engines, but is that visible?

 

thanks in anticipation of any info!

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

Yes the J79’s cans are longer on an E. The nose is also longer than the B/C. Im sure im barely scratching the surface here but those two stick out to me.

[bar side]

1 minute ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

Yes the J79’s cans are longer on an E. The nose is also longer than the B/C. Im sure im barely scratching the surface here but those two stick out to me.

Thanks - I had a rough idea that an E was basically an RF-4C nose grafted on to a E body for export, but no doubt the shape changed along the way

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

I think the camera window layout came in two versions in the “E” also an early/late style possibly ?

Edited November 11, 2017 by Corsairfoxfouruncle

[guillaume320]

Hello,

 

The RF-4C also had different camera window layout, not just the E.  As far as I'm aware, the RF-4C and E had the same length...

 

With regards to the wing, the RF-4C had the early unslatted wing as per F-4C, meaning the inboard part of the leading edge drooped as well. Most RF-4E's had the later wing whereby the inner part of the leading edge as not movable anymore. To make things a bit more interesting, some Greek RF-4Es even had the slatted wings!

 

Good luck with your model!

 

G

[GordonM]

I’ve got a Hasegawa RF4B USMC moulding, which I will be up using for a RF4C, the RF4B was apparently very similar to the C, as it used the later bulged wing. The differences  am aware of are the B had slatted stabilisers where the C had unslatted,which are either available as aftermarket (Hypersonic do them) or sand the flat. Also the refuelling probe receptor is on the opposite side on the C to the B (although Hasegawa moulding a panel both sides, so one needs filling no matter which model you build) and the rear cockpit was different between USN/MC and USAF variants.

[guillaume320]

2 hours ago, GordonM said:

the RF4B was apparently very similar to the C, as it used the later bulged wing. 

Some RF-4B had the thin wing, some had the bulged wing... All other RF's had bulged wings

[Jens]

I'm sorry to say so but there is so much incorrect information in this thread.

 

First of all, all RF-4B/C/E have the same length, and the general shape of the nose is the same, although there are two camera bay shapes (one angled and one rounded).

 

The first 36 RF-4Bs had the thinner wings of the F-4B/N (i.e. no large bulges).

The last ten RF-4Bs had the bulged wings just like all the RF-4Cs and RF-4Es (those RF-4Bs are all in the 1573xx BuNo range).

Almost all RF-4Bs had the angled nose profile. Only exception were the last three RF-4Bs - they had the rounded nose profile.

RF-4Bs started out with the shorter burner cans and unslotted tail planes. Later on, the remaining airframes were retrofitted with the longer burner cans and slotted tail planes. ECM updates were also carried out at some point.

 

All RF-4Cs had the thicker/bulged wings.
All RF-4Cs had the shorter burner cans.

All RF-4Cs had the unslotted tail planes.

Initial RF-4Cs had the angled nose profile, but around FY66 airframes the rounded profile started appearing. Some RF-4Cs were retrofitted with the rounded nose profile (I have never seen it the other way around). You really need a picture of the aircraft you want to build to be sure.

 

All RF-4Es had/have the thicker/bulged wings.

Original Greek and Turkish RF-4Es (all FY77) had/have the slatted wings of the F-4E/F/G.
All RF-4Es had/have the longer burner cans.

Most RF-4Es had/have the slotted tail planes. German RF-4Es had the unslotted tail planes.

Most RF-4Es had/have the rounded nose profile. German RF-4Es had the angled nose profile, and so did the initial Israeli RF-4Es. Later Israeli RF-4Es had the rounded nose profile.

Now, those are only the general differences. Added to that are all the details; cockpit, antenna suite etc.

HTH,

 

Jens

 

[Blackfordhibby]

9 minutes ago, Jens said:

I'm sorry to say so but there is so much incorrect information in this thread.

 

First of all, all RF-4B/C/E have the same length, and the general shape of the nose is the same, although there are two camera bay shapes (one angled and one rounded).

 

The first 36 RF-4Bs had the thinner wings of the F-4B/N (i.e. no large bulges).

The last ten RF-4Bs had the bulged wings just like all the RF-4Cs and RF-4Es (those RF-4Bs are all in the 1573xx BuNo range).

Almost all RF-4Bs had the angled nose profile. Only exception were the last three RF-4Bs - they had the rounded nose profile.

RF-4Bs started out with the shorter burner cans and unslotted tail planes. Later on, the remaining airframes were retrofitted with the longer burner cans and slotted tail planes. ECM updates were also carried out at some point.

 

All RF-4Cs had the thicker/bulged wings.
All RF-4Cs had the shorter burner cans.

All RF-4Cs had the unslotted tail planes.

Initial RF-4Cs had the angled nose profile, but around FY66 airframes the rounded profile started appearing. Some RF-4Cs were retrofitted with the rounded nose profile (I have never seen it the other way around). You really need a picture of the aircraft you want to build to be sure.

 

All RF-4Es had/have the thicker/bulged wings.

Original Greek and Turkish RF-4Es (all FY77) had/have the slatted wings of the F-4E/F/G.
All RF-4Es had/have the longer burner cans.

Most RF-4Es had/have the slotted tail planes. German RF-4Es had the unslotted tail planes.

Most RF-4Es had/have the rounded nose profile. German RF-4Es had the angled nose profile, and so did the initial Israeli RF-4Es. Later Israeli RF-4Es had the rounded nose profile.

Now, those are only the general differences. Added to that are all the details; cockpit, antenna suite etc.

HTH,

 

Jens

 

Says it all for me Jens, I was still trying to collate this information to make a post. Great info for the OP, just what he needed I think.

 

Peter

[bar side]

Cheers guys - most informative.  I assume that there are no 1/48 RF-4C kits out there to a decent standard, so the starting point would be a F-4C and graft on an aftermarket nose.  And stick with German markings on an RF-4E

[Jens]

No, the best starting point would be any RF-4 (B,C or E). From there it is just a matter of swapping or modifying parts.

 

The best 1/48th scale RF-4 kit is from Hasegawa, without doubt.

 

Jens

[Blackfordhibby]

34 minutes ago, bar side said:

Cheers guys - most informative.  I assume that there are no 1/48 RF-4C kits out there to a decent standard, so the starting point would be a F-4C and graft on an aftermarket nose.  And stick with German markings on an RF-4E

Hasegawa do an RF-4C in 48th, there is one on a well known auction site at the moment. The kit is in Japan so it has a £13 odds postage to go with the sale price.

 

Peter

[bar side]

Thank you guys.  Storing this away for future project.  Have a F-4C to do as a 

Lakenheath or Woodbridge resident first.  Will keep any eye on said sites.

[iainpeden]

Just to add a little; The Greeks bought most (all?) of the Luftwaffe RF-4Es when they went out of service, used some for spares and some for operations. Consequently you will see Greek RFs in the tan and 2 green scheme and also in the Luftwaffe very dark grey and 2 greens; the former are the original order with the slatted wing.

[Creepy Pete]

12 minutes ago, iainpeden said:

The Greeks bought most (all?) of the Luftwaffe RF-4Es when they went out of service, used some for spares and some for operations. Consequently you will see Greek RFs in the tan and 2 green scheme and also in the Luftwaffe very dark grey and 2 greens; the former are the original order with the slatted wing.

Out of the 88 Luftwaffe RF-4E's, Greece recieved 27 (including 7 for spares) jets, Turkey got 46, 33 for operational use, the other 13 for spares.

 

Also, the RF-4B and C used the original USN style inboard weapon pylons with the straight leading edge, the RF-4E got the later USAF style ones with the curved leading edge.

[Giorgio N]

Speaking of kits, there's no doubt that the Hasegawa one is the very best. Their RF-4E should be currently available, unfortunately this does not include the shorter exhaust nozzles that must be acquired somewhere else. Aires has a resin set, the presence of one type or the other also involves some small differences in the real Phantom but it's not that noticeable (and not hard to do anyway). Kit comes with rounded camera nose

The recent Italeri kit is a modification of the old Esci tool, not too bad from many points of view but with very little detail in general and a very bare cockpit. Of course it's possible to add aftermarket parts, but this would then make it even more expensive than the superior Hase kit... and the Italeri kit too only has E style exhausts but has both rounded and square camera noses

The Testors kit is the old Italeri mould, originally had both exhaist styles, don't know if the Testors box retain these, I suspect it does. In any case here we have raised panel lines and very little detail. The only camera nose is the square one here. Back in the days it was suggested to cross-kit this one with the Monogram F-4C/D kit to get the very best possible RF-4C, but with more modern kits around I doubt this is required today. I wouldn't be surprised however if such combination would end up cheaper...

[guillaume320]

To add to Giorgio's comprehensive overview above, it has to be said some (not all!) Hasegawa RF- boxes have both camera window styles included...  There is a link somewhere available to check which sprues are available in specific Hasegawa boxes. Good luck!

 

G

 

[Antoine]

Here you go!

 

Quote

Recce F-4s Engraved:  Hasegawa is finally producing recon Rhinos!

RF-4B:  07231, 09652, 09839, and 09973 have both early and later noses and later bulged wings, so only build one of the last 12 USMC RF-4Bs.  I’m told the early F-4B/N wing mates up with the fuselage nicely (thank you, Ken!), so a kitbash may be feasible to build the earlier Marine recce Rhinos.

RF-4C:  09557 builds the RF-4C with either the original or later camera nose, 09629 includes only the original camera nose. 

 RF-4E:  07230 and identical 09574 build the JASDF RF-4E with later rounded camera nose only.  09612 and 09621 are almost identical to these, but lack the F-15 style centerline drop tank.  09590, 09696, and 09883 build Luftwaffe & Hellenic RF-4Es with early stepped camera nose only.  09685 is similar to 09590, also includes the later lower nose and a metal IDF style refueling probe.  Unique 09537 builds an RF-4EJ KAI, which is a JASDF F-4EJ upgraded to carry various centerline recce pods; the kit is identical to 09380/09556 minus the F-15 drop tank, and includes parts to build any of the three sensor pods used.

RF-4EJ:  09923 is another unique version, basically an F-4EJ that is equipped with the same centerline recce pods as found in kit 09537.

 

Edited November 13, 2017 by Antoine

[Giorgio N]

Ah, good to know that some Haseegawa boxes include both types of nose. Interestingly all 1/72 boxes seem to include both noses and both types of nozzles, so that a C or an E can be made from all (except the B of course)

[Hook]

2 hours ago, Giorgio N said:

Ah, good to know that some Haseegawa boxes include both types of nose. Interestingly all 1/72 boxes seem to include both noses and both types of nozzles, so that a C or an E can be made from all (except the B of course)

 

My 1/72nd Hasegawa RF-4B's come with both thin and thick wings.

 

Cheers,

 

Andre

[Giorgio N]

9 minutes ago, Hook said:

 

My 1/72nd Hasegawa RF-4B's come with both thin and thick wings.

 

Cheers,

 

Andre

 

That's an even better solution then as would allow every variant to be built from that box

[Jens]

48 minutes ago, Giorgio N said:

 

That's an even better solution then as would allow every variant to be built from that box

Not quite, as the rounded inner wing pylons and starboard instrument console in the aft cockpit are not present in the kit. Also, I am not sure all 1/72nd scale RF-4B releases have both wing types.

That said, most RF-4s can be built from the RF-4B kit.

 

Jens

[Hook]

3 minutes ago, Giorgio N said:

 

That's an even better solution then as would allow every variant to be built from that box

 

Indeed! Plus, since Hasegawa F-4B/N's are getting rare in my neck of the woods compared to their F-4J, the surplus thin wings come in very handy for that early 'Nam Navy Phantom.

 

Cheers,

 

Andre

[Hook]

29 minutes ago, Jens said:

Not quite, as the rounded inner wing pylons and starboard instrument console in the aft cockpit are not present in the kit.

 

AFAIK the starboard console cover is present in all Hase new tool 1/72nd Phantoms.

 

Cheers,

 

Andre

 

[Jens]

3 minutes ago, Hook said:

 

AFAIK the starboard console cover is present in all Hase new tool 1/72nd Phantoms.

 

Cheers,

 

Andre

 

Yes, the cover is there, but it wasn't used on RF-4Cs and Es. There is no decal for it in the RF-4B kit.

 

Jens