Kittyhawk Ia colour questions

[Seawinder]

I'm thinking about doing an AMT P-40K kit as a Kittyhawk Mk. IA, serial no. EV421, RSAAF, North Africa 1942, one of Hauptfleish's two planes coded DB*H. I've been tracking through all the Britmodeller threads I can find in hopes of obtaining any solid answers to a couple of questions, so far in vain:

1. This plane being part of a late block of export Kittyhawk Ia's (P-40E-1), was it more likely to have been delivered in TLS, MS/DE/AzBlue, or even OD/NG? I know earlier export batches were TLS, but I can't find anything about this one.

2. There seem to be several possibilities for cockpit color: Curtiss's mix of grey and zinc chromate yellow, DuPont Cockpit Light Green 71-036 (which looks reasonably close to RAF Cockpit Grey Green), or some other mix designed to approximate the RAF cockpit color.

If anyone can help with either of these matters, it'd be much appreciated.

Thanks,

Pip

Edited November 9, 2017 by Seawinder

[72modeler]

Does this help with the exterior? Nick Millman can probably help you with the cockpit and interior colors. I'm guessing either DuPont or MAP dark earth/midstone/azure blue, but that's just a guess.

Mike

 

 

[Fernando]

Hi, Seawinder,

 

AFAIK, RAF P-40s were factory painted in "Du Pont TLS". Dark Green 71-013, Dark Earth 71-009 (the lighter variant, later replaced by the better 71-035, while the undersurfaces are argued: predominant doctrine leans towards a light Sky which could be 71-021, but Light Gray or a more definite Light Blue were proposed. For service in North Africa, the Brits overpainted the DG in their own Middlestone (hence many machine with their Starboard serial number in a "dark rectangle", i.e., the DG background masked)

 

Later machines (P-40Fs and Ls) were for some time factory painted in "Du Pont DS", but those are not the ones you look for, IMHO

 

Interiors could be "Curtiss Green" (a lighter variant of Interior Green) or Du Pont 71-036 Cockpit Light Green, which in any period picture would have looked much the same.

 

FErnando

[BS_w]

A note read on factory drawing about paint & insignia for later P40

 

"All P40 F, K, K1 & L airlpanes allocated to british shall have camouflaging in

accord with req. on this drawing* except that they have

upper surface of airlpane with british brown on top of Army

olive drab to contour given on drawing**"

 

* this drawing shows US Army camo, OD41/NG43

** RAF scheme

 

Edited November 9, 2017 by BS_w

[BS_w]

As Fernando wrote above, If Curtiss gave Dupont ref for Brown(DArk Earth 71-009) and Green(Dark Green 71-013), for the "Sky" it was written only: Sky Type S(Undersurfaces), but no ref.

 

P40 - K 1 could be camouflaged "desert scheme" at the factory

Always on factory drawings,

"Desert camouflage" to be applied model K 1 only
Brown 71-035
Mid Stone 71-069
Azure Blue 71-062
Propeller spinner to be Brown(Dark Earth)"

Edited November 9, 2017 by BS_w

[Seawinder]

10 hours ago, 72modeler said:

Does this help with the exterior? Nick Millman can probably help you with the cockpit and interior colors. I'm guessing either DuPont or MAP dark earth/midstone/azure blue, but that's just a guess.

Mike

 

 

Thanks for the reference -- handy to have a profile and photo in the same place.

4 hours ago, Fernando said:

Hi, Seawinder,

 

AFAIK, RAF P-40s were factory painted in "Du Pont TLS". Dark Green 71-013, Dark Earth 71-009 (the lighter variant, later replaced by the better 71-035, while the undersurfaces are argued: predominant doctrine leans towards a light Sky which could be 71-021, but Light Gray or a more definite Light Blue were proposed. For service in North Africa, the Brits overpainted the DG in their own Middlestone (hence many machine with their Starboard serial number in a "dark rectangle", i.e., the DG background masked)

 

Later machines (P-40Fs and Ls) were for some time factory painted in "Du Pont DS", but those are not the ones you look for, IMHO

 

Interiors could be "Curtiss Green" (a lighter variant of Interior Green) or Du Pont 71-036 Cockpit Light Green, which in any period picture would have looked much the same.

 

FErnando

Thanks, Fernando. The wing under of the recently discovered "Sahara P-40" looks to be something at least as dark as Azure Blue. The one photo I've seen of DB-H shows relatively slight contrast between the DE and MS, so I'm going with your call of the lighter Dupont shade. As for the cockpit, I came up with something reasonable using zinc chromate yellow and dark grey tweaked with a bit of zinc chromate green, so I think I'll use it.

Edited November 9, 2017 by Seawinder

[Graham Boak]

One point: Azure Blue isn't particularly dark.  If an RAF ME aircraft is seen with a dark underside it is likelier to be Light Mediterranean Blue (which is only light compared to Dark Mediterranean Blue).

[Seawinder]

1 hour ago, Graham Boak said:

One point: Azure Blue isn't particularly dark.  If an RAF ME aircraft is seen with a dark underside it is likelier to be Light Mediterranean Blue (which is only light compared to Dark Mediterranean Blue).

Agreed. I think the upturned wing of the "Sahara P-40" is Medit. Blue. There's not a whole lot of contrast between the MS and the bottom color in the one (rather poor) photo I've seen of DB-H, so I'm going to go with Azure Blue, although it probably could just as easily have been whatever Curtiss used for the TLC.

[Nick Millman]

On 09/11/2017 at 3:11 PM, Seawinder said:

Thanks for the reference -- handy to have a profile and photo in the same place.

Thanks, Fernando. The wing under of the recently discovered "Sahara P-40" looks to be something at least as dark as Azure Blue. The one photo I've seen of DB-H shows relatively slight contrast between the DE and MS, so I'm going with your call of the lighter Dupont shade. As for the cockpit, I came up with something reasonable using zinc chromate yellow and dark grey tweaked with a bit of zinc chromate green, so I think I'll use it.

In the "lift-up" photo the wing is in shadow and the blue looks darker than it really is. It appears to be Azure Blue painted over an original Sky finish. A colour photo of a Kittyhawk I survivor shared recently by LDSModeller suggests that the interior green was similar to export Hudsons, a "surrogate" RAF cockpit Grey Green, slightly more blueish in appearance.

 

Nick

[Nick Millman]

On 09/11/2017 at 10:38 AM, Fernando said:

the undersurfaces are argued: predominant doctrine leans towards a light Sky which could be 71-021, but Light Gray or a more definite Light Blue were proposed.

FErnando

They might be argued but AFAIK there is no tangible evidence, documentary or archeological, of a light grey or even a "consensus" as to its actual hue. There is however tangible evidence from several different sources of a Sky "surrogate" under surface colour.

 

Above BS-w provides very significant evidence about later marks "converted" at the factory to a quasi Temperate Land scheme by the addition of "brown" paint to US finished aircraft. That probably explains the dark under surface appearance of some Ks. The British had agreed to this expedient in the US but it was later overruled by the Air Ministry. The same conversion was made to some P-40E pool aircraft in Australia using Field Drab which was an acceptable substitute for Dark Earth. The result was a rather low contrast upper surface scheme with dark looking under surfaces, in some cases subsequently over-painted with RAAF Sky Blue to a wavy demarcation.

 

Nick

[Fernando]

Nick, thank you for your answer.

 

Yep, "predominant doctrine" I said, in line with your clarification.

 

I do not fully understand your "potentially very interesting" (potentially as far as I failed to understand it fully). Are you saying that the Du Pont "light" Dark Earth used on early "equivalent-TLS" machines was overpainted in a better DE such as Field Drab? And how that influenced in the look of the undersurfaces? 

 

Fernando

[Nick Millman]

1 hour ago, Fernando said:

Nick, thank you for your answer.

 

Yep, "predominant doctrine" I said, in line with your clarification.

 

I do not fully understand your "potentially very interesting" (potentially as far as I failed to understand it fully). Are you saying that the Du Pont "light" Dark Earth used on early "equivalent-TLS" machines was overpainted in a better DE such as Field Drab? And how that influenced in the look of the undersurfaces? 

 

Fernando

Hi Fernando

 

Thanks.

 

Re second para - no, I meant how aircraft in the US scheme of OD over NG were expediently modified by the addition of brown camouflage segments on the upper surfaces to imitate the RAF TLS. Some of the US Ks operated in China appear like that. As the OD degraded that might have given rise to the descriptions of "desert" colours for those aircraft - the impression of two browns rather than green and brown. BS_w's comment suggests that in addition to Ks in US and US-applied RAF Desert schemes they were possibly delivered in "expedient" TLS as well.    

 

There are some Curtiss photographs that suggest there was some wrangling over the colour of the Dark Earth in both TLS and Desert schemes on the K which I suspect might have been concerned with their relative contrasts. I intend to explore that in greater detail at the blog but have not yet done so. Originally Dupont 71-009 was intended for TLS and 71-035 for the Desert scheme. 71-009 was also used on the P-400 and was described by Martin as a synthetic enamel during surface irregularities tests on a wing in 1943 which might suggest that by then it had been deemed obsolete. 

 

Regards

Nick

[Seawinder]

3 hours ago, Nick Millman said:

Hi Fernando

 

Thanks.

 

Re second para - no, I meant how aircraft in the US scheme of OD over NG were expediently modified by the addition of brown camouflage segments on the upper surfaces to imitate the RAF TLS. Some of the US Ks operated in China appear like that. As the OD degraded that might have given rise to the descriptions of "desert" colours for those aircraft - the impression of two browns rather than green and brown. BS_w's comment suggests that in addition to Ks in US and US-applied RAF Desert schemes they were possibly delivered in "expedient" TLS as well.    

 

There are some Curtiss photographs that suggest there was some wrangling over the colour of the Dark Earth in both TLS and Desert schemes on the K which I suspect might have been concerned with their relative contrasts. I intend to explore that in greater detail at the blog but have not yet done so. Originally Dupont 71-009 was intended for TLS and 71-035 for the Desert scheme. 71-009 was also used on the P-400 and was described by Martin as a synthetic enamel during surface irregularities tests on a wing in 1943 which might suggest that by then it had been deemed obsolete. 

 

Regards

Nick

Hi Nick. Do you think my interpretation of 71-009 on DB-H is plausible, given that it was apparently converted to desert camouflage by overpainting the green with Middle Stone?

Link: http://www.saairforce.co.za/the-airforce/aircraft/117/p-40-kittyhawk-mk-ia

[dfqweofekwpeweiop4]

While we're discussing Kittyhawk colours, I've got the Hasegawa 1/72 Kittyhawk Mk I sat here and I too would just like to double check the colours before painting it. It's a 250 Sqd aircraft, with the Red Arrow around the exhausts coded LD-B, from 1942. Now the instructions say it's painted in standard desert camouflage, which I believe but would they have been repainted with RAF colours, or like someone has suggested earlier in this thread, that possibly only the original Curtiss Green had be overpainted with Mid Stone, leaving the original Curtiss Dark Earth? I'll be going for Azure Blue for the undersides, unless that's badly wrong. I also have an Airfix Tomahawk to do in RAF desert colours, would that be the same as well, or different?

 

thanks

Mike

[dfqweofekwpeweiop4]

Any thoughts anyone?

 

thanks

Mike

[Fernando]

Hi, Mikemx,

 

there is a picture of it in some Osprey book. It shows some repainting and a kind of "torpedo" ventral drop tank.

 

I once built that kit in 1/48. I went for an overpainted TLS scheme; that is, MAP Middlestone with Du Pont  71-009 Dark Earth (the light variety), and Azure Blue undersurfaces. White leading edges. In the pictures, undersurfaces are a bit lighter for AB, and might be the original Sky or Light Grey.

 

Hope that helps,

 

Fernando

[Seawinder]

19 hours ago, Fernando said:

Hi, Mikemx,

 

there is a picture of it in some Osprey book. It shows some repainting and a kind of "torpedo" ventral drop tank.

 

I once built that kit in 1/48. I went for an overpainted TLS scheme; that is, MAP Middlestone with Du Pont  71-009 Dark Earth (the light variety), and Azure Blue undersurfaces. White leading edges. In the pictures, undersurfaces are a bit lighter for AB, and might be the original Sky or Light Grey.

 

Hope that helps,

 

Fernando

That's what I'm going to use for DB*H, and I think, Mikemx, that it's probably not an unreasonable choice for the Tomahawk as well.

There's another Britmodeller thread with some interesting (and contentious) comments on the Tomahawk colors here:

One point of confusion: the "other" Du Pont Dark Earth is repeatedly referred to as 71-065, but according to the Color Standards chart submitted to the MAP, it should be 71-035. This was the darker version used later in factory-applied desert paint schemes and probably not applicable to the aircraft being discussed in this thread.

Edited November 21, 2017 by Seawinder

[dfqweofekwpeweiop4]

Thanks folks, it's always good to get a second opinion, so that's how i'll proceed.

 

thanks

Mike

[dfqweofekwpeweiop4]

I'd just like to check one more thing before committing to painting my Kittyhawk Mk I. I'm also painting a USAAF P-40E which was used in the Pacific and the Brown Camouflage colour I have marked as Curtiss Brown is much lighter than RAF Dark Earth and is more of Tan colour than a Dark Brown. My question is therefore, how close to RAF Dark Earth was the Dark Earth on the RAF desert Camou Kittyhawks (and Tomahawks for that matter)? I do have another paint colour which is more similar to RAF Dark Earth.

 

thanks

Mike

[Fernando]

Hi, Mikemx,

 

USAAF P-40Es in DE/DG uppers are those taken from British orders, therefore are finished in the same colours, whatever variation/opinion you follow. The colours used are the same Du Pont ones.

 

Fernando

[Seawinder]

20 hours ago, Mikemx said:

I'd just like to check one more thing before committing to painting my Kittyhawk Mk I. I'm also painting a USAAF P-40E which was used in the Pacific and the Brown Camouflage colour I have marked as Curtiss Brown is much lighter than RAF Dark Earth and is more of Tan colour than a Dark Brown. My question is therefore, how close to RAF Dark Earth was the Dark Earth on the RAF desert Camou Kittyhawks (and Tomahawks for that matter)? I do have another paint colour which is more similar to RAF Dark Earth.

 

thanks

Mike

From what I've read, the darker Du Pont Dark Earth (71-035) was not used until later -- probably P-40Fs -- when desert camouflage was being factory applied. As for the lighter Dark Earth (71-009), which is most likely what was seen on the earlier desert camouflage that started as TLS, it's a little harder to nail down because it's not on the Du Pont color chart that was submitted to the MAP. If you do a Google image search on Du Pont 71-009, you'll hopefully find two images near the top. One is a scan of the Du Pont color chart; the other is a depiction (looking very much like others produced by Nick Millman, but I can't say for sure) of the two Du Pont Dark Earths. Note that the darker one is mislabeled 71-065 -- it should be 71-035. The 71-009 is distinctly lighter and (to my eye) redder. In fact, if you can get both images on your screen, it's pretty close to, but perhaps a bit darker than, the chip for Light Earth 71-048 on the Du Pont chart. I plan to mix my attempt at 71-009 by starting with some USAF FS 30219 (SEAC dark tan) and adding a small amount of burnt umber to taste.

[dfqweofekwpeweiop4]

Thanks for that. I just did the google search as suggested and I get the 2 colour chips. I'm using Vallejo USAAF colours (which are probably supposed to be close matches instead of exact matches) and the colour they label as Curtiss Brown looks similar to the light colour (71009). The darker Vallejo USAAF Brown is called US Field Drab and looks like the darker chip, which doesn't look a millions miles off RAF Dark Earth to me. So my plan will be to use the lighter Brown colour on Tomahawks and Kittyhawk Mk I's and I've got a couple of RAF/RAAF Kittyhawk Mk II's and a Mk III, on which I'll use the Darker Brown.

 

I'm looking forward to seeing what the new Special Hobby P-40 kits are going to be like in the flesh, so I thought I'd get a few from the stash done first. I view it as the USAAF's equivalent of the Hurricane, for the fact it was overshadowed by the P-47 and P-51 in the way the Spitfire overshadowed the Hurricane and the fact it's what they had early on that could be made in big numbers while the better fighters were in development.

 

thanks

Mike