Ingo Degenhardt Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 Hi, I am about to start painting on my Airfix Jet Provost - scheme is White, Red, LAG. Airfix suggests H174 for the Red, indicating it to be BS537 in the instructions. I also have here Xtracolor X014 Red Arrows Red, also labeled BS537. Comparing the two, Xtracolor looks a little lighter and a bit more one the 'orange' side than H174. I am not sure which paint to use. Does anyone know which one is the better match? TIA Ingo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stever219 Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 BS381C:537 Signal Red is the correct colour; there's no reference on the colour chart that I've just googled for that colour as "Red Arrows Red". Humbrol 174 isn't too bad a match but can appear a little dull, even when over painted with a gloss coat. As you said the Xtracolor colour is a bit brighter and more orange than the Humbrol. The usual caveats apply about checking images on line or in print: every single one will be different, even of the same subject at the same time. Have a look at images of the two Jet Provosts at Hendon and you'll see what I mean: even the nose cone of one is a different colour to the rest of the airframe despite ostensibly being painted with paint meeting the same specification (apparently there is a 10% tolerance on colours to BS381C). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingo Degenhardt Posted November 2, 2017 Author Share Posted November 2, 2017 19 minutes ago, stever219 said: BS381C:537 Signal Red is the correct colour; there's no reference on the colour chart that I've just googled for that colour as "Red Arrows Red". Humbrol 174 isn't too bad a match but can appear a little dull, even when over painted with a gloss coat. As you said the Xtracolor colour is a bit brighter and more orange than the Humbrol. The usual caveats apply about checking images on line or in print: every single one will be different, even of the same subject at the same time. Have a look at images of the two Jet Provosts at Hendon and you'll see what I mean: even the nose cone of one is a different colour to the rest of the airframe despite ostensibly being painted with paint meeting the same specification (apparently there is a 10% tolerance on colours to BS381C). Thank you - "Red Arrows Red" is what the Xtracolor tin's label calls X014, plus the designation of the colour. You're right - I could not decide which one to use when looking at pictures. On some, the Humbrol paint looked a match, on others not. I think I will go for the Xtracolor which is a gloss paint and so of my preferred kind of paint for aircraft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Edmundson Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 Red Arrows Red is for the Hawks, and is not the correct colour for a Jet Provost. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingo Degenhardt Posted November 2, 2017 Author Share Posted November 2, 2017 1 hour ago, Tony Edmundson said: Red Arrows Red is for the Hawks, and is not the correct colour for a Jet Provost. Tony The strange thing about it is that the BS Numbers correspond - Airfix instructions and Xtracolor can. And that H174 and X014 look very similar. May be labeling X014 as Red Arrows Red is misleading? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Edmundson Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 I would use the Humbrol, even my Xtra colour looks orangy to me, Signal Red is the colour for the Hawks, but I see it's closer to Humbrol 209(judging by the tin lid) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Edmundson Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 the IPMS Stockholm site has the FS11350 as a match for Signal Red(Red Arrows) but its way more red than X14. Its more like HU174. I'm starting to mistrust the X-14 colour, more and more. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingo Degenhardt Posted November 3, 2017 Author Share Posted November 3, 2017 (edited) I find it hard to tell from pictures - some JP's Red looks in fact a little orangy on some photos. I might mix x14 and H174 in a 50:50 ratio... Edited November 3, 2017 by Ingo Degenhardt 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stever219 Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 15 hours ago, Tony Edmundson said: the IPMS Stockholm site has the FS11350 as a match for Signal Red(Red Arrows) but its way more red than X14. Its more like HU174. I'm starting to mistrust the X-14 colour, more and more. Tony I'd be wary of treating anything in FS595B as an exact match for anything in BS381C, but it may be close enough for government work.😉 Ingo's plot to mix Humbrol & Xtracolor has some merit, but I'd experiment on a scrap model first: I've had less-than-stellar results from Xtracolor Nevadry and the two paints may not be properly miscible. Tony I'm unsure about your reference to Humbrol 209: my leaky memory says that's one of the Dayglo reds. I've an idea that either Humbrol 228 or 238 (sorry, I haven't got a paint chart handy) might be a possible alternative. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingo Degenhardt Posted November 3, 2017 Author Share Posted November 3, 2017 If I mix the two, my hopes are of course to shorten the usual 3-day drying time of Xtracolor by a day or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Edmundson Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 1 hour ago, stever219 said: Tony I'm unsure about your reference to Humbrol 209: my leaky memory says that's one of the Dayglo reds. I've an idea that either Humbrol 228 or 238 (sorry, I haven't got a paint chart handy) might be a possible alternative. I was just going by the colour of the lid of the tinlet, they seem similar, I haven't done a paint swatch comparison. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies Posted November 4, 2017 Share Posted November 4, 2017 On 02/11/2017 at 4:45 PM, stever219 said: (apparently there is a 10% tolerance on colours to BS381C). Hi Steve, Did the person who told you that happen to describe exactly what that was supposed to mean? I've been chewing this one over because (in the nicest possible way) it's fairly meaningless on its on. It's like saying there is a 10% tolerance on the flavour of a curry. Is that 10% richer/blander/hotter/amount of onions/amount of tomatoes etc etc etc. A 10% tolerance makes sense on something which has a linear dimension such as a length of rope, but is nonsensical on something with various characteristics which are measured differently. On a colourspace however where the hue is measured in 2 directions simultaneously to give a cartesian coordinate of red/green/blue/yellow balance and intensity and a 3rd dimension giving the lightness/darkness of it, a 10% difference on all attributes simultaneously would result in very obviously different shade. So again, 10% of what exactly is allowable? The commonly accepted way of measuring colour differences is CIELAB Delta E - but a close match is considered as being less than a calculated outcome of 2. A Delta E value of 10 is just a different colour. Whilst not very comprehensive in scope the closeness in shades of some of colours which are in BS381C are narrow enough that it's hard to give much credibility to the notion that the BSi is so vague and slack with the application of the standard. Lastly, my copy of BS381C-1996 makes no mention of any tolerances whatsoever. The standard is the standard - as one would expect. It could be the case that the person who told you of this alleged tolerance worked for some naff company which nominally made paints to BS381C but just happened to have low standards of quality themselves and do long as an order for BS381C-537 came out approximately reddish from the machine it wad lidded and sold. In summary, I think whoever told you that may have been making it up! 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted November 4, 2017 Share Posted November 4, 2017 18 hours ago, Ingo Degenhardt said: to shorten the usual 3-day drying time of Xtracolor While I used enamels happily in my youth, large scale building paint jobs with oil based paint have dampened my tolerance for the solvents and clean up.... But, for full scale oil paint in the UK you can get "driers" https://www.brewers.co.uk/product/BN46053Q05 " Suitable for solvent based alkyd paints and oils. It speeds up drying times and can also be added to old paint and varnish that has become slow drying. " IIRC some members here have used this to aid paint that takes an age to dry ah, here we go On 19/08/2014 at 11:28, Cheshiretaurus said: I've started using Xtracolor too and was troubled by the geological drying times, then I discovered something called Terebine driers, an additive that is used in very small quantities (1%) and decreases the drying time to less than 24 hours in line with normal gloss enamels. Also suggested is to thin it with cellulose thinners. At the moment I'm thinning the stuff with a 50:50 mix of white spirit & cellulose thinners and a drop of the terebine dryers, and have had good results since I'msure there is something similar in Germany, interestingly searching "terebene" gets https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/terebene Quote terebene (plural terebenes) (obsolete, medicine) Any of various preparations, composed mainly of terpenes, obtained from camphor or turpentine by several chemical methods, used as an expectorant and antiseptic and in the linked thread On 19/08/2014 at 22:38, Trenton guy said: I have found drying time to be vastly improved by thinning with Windsor & Newton "English Distilled Turpentine". Obtained it in an art supply store. note https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turpentine Quote Turpentine (also called spirit of turpentine, oil of turpentine, wood turpentine and colloquially turps[1]) is a fluid obtained by the distillation of resin obtained from live trees, mainly pines. It is mainly used as a solvent and as a source of materials for organic synthesis. Turpentine is composed of terpenes, mainly the monoterpenes alpha-pinene and beta-pinene with lesser amounts of carene, camphene, dipentene, and terpinolene.[2] When I was doing a large paint job (a shop front)I ended up after a screw up redoing it and using gloss thinned with turpentine and it went on like water and dried really fast. Sorry if off the topic of the colours ( I was curious to see what @Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies had to say) but this may help with slow Alkyd paint drying? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies Posted November 4, 2017 Share Posted November 4, 2017 Hi Troy, I haven't actually tried terebine dryers in enamel paint but I can do and expect they will work well. I have used them in recreating 1930s Royal Navy paint recipes to find out what the paint looked like. That was a classical linseed oil, turpentine and pigment powder recipe and a small quantity of terebine dryers was prescribed in the recipe so in it went. The linseed oil paint was touch dry in about 5 to 10 minutes like a matt enamel. I'll give it a go on a full gloss enamel next opportunity and report back ... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMB Posted November 5, 2017 Share Posted November 5, 2017 (edited) On 11/2/2017 at 7:29 PM, Tony Edmundson said: Red Arrows Red is for the Hawks, and is not the correct colour for a Jet Provost. Tony Correct. 'Red Arrows red'= Signal Red, which is a very bright red also used on the Queens Flight helicopters. Having seen more RAF Jet Provosts than I've had hot dinners and published the Warpaint book on the Jet Provost, Humbrol Gloss Bright Red No.19 is the correct colour. I have built several JP kits and they all look correct. I guess it can also be described as 'Post Box Red'. I think we can get hung up on different photos taken on different brands of film in different lighting conditions. Edited November 5, 2017 by AMB 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Posted November 5, 2017 Share Posted November 5, 2017 Humbrol 174 is satin 537. Humbrol 238 is gloss 537. HTH John 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingo Degenhardt Posted November 5, 2017 Author Share Posted November 5, 2017 7 hours ago, AMB said: Correct. 'Red Arrows red'= Signal Red, which is a very bright red also used on the Queens Flight helicopters. Having seen more RAF Jet Provosts than I've had hot dinners and published the Warpaint book on the Jet Provost, Humbrol Gloss Bright Red No.19 is the correct colour. I have built several JP kits and they all look correct. I guess it can also be described as 'Post Box Red'. I think we can get hung up on different photos taken on different brands of film in different lighting conditions. Alright then - I'll use No.19. Fortunately I haven't started yet - I am still waiting for Xtracolor's Light Aircraft Grey to dry. H19 really looks like the Red I've seen on most JP pictures. I am wondering why Airfix suggests Signal Red (as one aftermarket decal sheet I had a look at, also does) because it is a very different colour. XtraColor 'Post Office Red/BS538 looks a little darker than No. 19. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sloegin57 Posted November 6, 2017 Share Posted November 6, 2017 4 hours ago, Ingo Degenhardt said: I am wondering why Airfix suggests Signal Red (as one aftermarket decal sheet I had a look at, also does) because it is a very different colour. Probably because "Signal Red" was the Officially designated colour for training aircraft at the time both in such documents as Defence Council Instructions and the drawings for the aircraft. Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radfan Hunters Posted November 6, 2017 Share Posted November 6, 2017 I trust I am not going to confuse the issue too much, but I would like to add a little information following on from AMB's comment that the Red Arrows colour was Signal Red. The same question arose when the Gnat Display Team decided to repaint one of its Gnats to represent Ray Hanna's aircraft, XS111, in the colour and markings it carried in 1966. It caused a lot of confusion at the time and the conclusion was reached that the team aircraft colours changed from signal red to post office red (could have been the other way round, sorry I can't remember as it was a few years ago) but the colour did change. The precise year for the change could not be determined I'm afraid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Edmundson Posted November 6, 2017 Share Posted November 6, 2017 It WAS the other way round. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stever219 Posted November 6, 2017 Share Posted November 6, 2017 On 04/11/2017 at 12:31 PM, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said: Hi Steve, Did the person who told you that happen to describe exactly what that was supposed to mean? I've been chewing this one over because (in the nicest possible way) it's fairly meaningless on its on. It's like saying there is a 10% tolerance on the flavour of a curry. Is that 10% richer/blander/hotter/amount of onions/amount of tomatoes etc etc etc. A 10% tolerance makes sense on something which has a linear dimension such as a length of rope, but is nonsensical on something with various characteristics which are measured differently. On a colourspace however where the hue is measured in 2 directions simultaneously to give a cartesian coordinate of red/green/blue/yellow balance and intensity and a 3rd dimension giving the lightness/darkness of it, a 10% difference on all attributes simultaneously would result in very obviously different shade. So again, 10% of what exactly is allowable? The commonly accepted way of measuring colour differences is CIELAB Delta E - but a close match is considered as being less than a calculated outcome of 2. A Delta E value of 10 is just a different colour. Whilst not very comprehensive in scope the closeness in shades of some of colours which are in BS381C are narrow enough that it's hard to give much credibility to the notion that the BSi is so vague and slack with the application of the standard. Lastly, my copy of BS381C-1996 makes no mention of any tolerances whatsoever. The standard is the standard - as one would expect. It could be the case that the person who told you of this alleged tolerance worked for some naff company which nominally made paints to BS381C but just happened to have low standards of quality themselves and do long as an order for BS381C-537 came out approximately reddish from the machine it wad lidded and sold. In summary, I think whoever told you that may have been making it up! Jamie. I wish I could remember just now. Unfortunately I was visiting this chap who supplies paints to the motor trade for a reason entirely unconnected with matching colours (I was inspecting his VAT) and the topic of matching BS and RAL colours came up as an aside, but I think it does relate to brightness/darkness and colour saturation/density. I'll have a look to see if he's still local to me and try to drop him an e-mail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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