Sea Vixen FAW.1 load out

[Meatbox8]

Hello all

 

I am currently building the MPM Sea Vixen FAW.1, not a particularly enjoyable build but, hey, a Sea Vixen is a Sea Vixen.  As many of you may know, contrary to the box art there is no ordnance included in the kit other than fuel tanks and I want to kit it out with something.  I have a few Firestreaks but they are sort of reserved for Lightnings so was thinking of allocating just two to the Vixen.  This leaves two empty pylons.  I have a few Matra SNEB pods lying around but I haven't seen a picture of an FAW.1 equipped with them.  Did this mark ever carry SNEBs?  If not can anyone suggest anything else I can hang underneath it?

 

Cheers. 

[davepb]

They did carry 4x 500 lb bombs or 2x 1000 lb bombs in Ground attack role - is that any help?

 

Dave

[Meatbox8]

1 minute ago, davepb said:

They did carry 4x 500 lb bombs or 2x 1000 lb bombs in Ground attack role - is that any help?

 

Dave

Thanks Dave.  Yes, a great help.  Will look and see what I've got in the spares box.

[Meatbox8]

It's possible I may have answered my own question so stop me if I'm wrong.  According to the technical data section of Warpaint publication (which only has a couple of pics of the FAW.1 btw)  the FAW.1 could carry up to four pods of 24x2 inch rockets (SNEBs?) amongst other things.  The various other things are 500 and 1000lb bombs, Bullpups and napalm carriers but I don't have any of these in the spares as it turns out.  So, are the 24x2 inch rockets carried in SNEB pods are are these the exposed 'stacked' rockets that I have seen?

[JohnT]

Richard Franks book states armament for the F(AW) Mk1 as 4 DH Firestreak and later Red Top or 28 Microcell unguided missiles carried in 2 retractable trays one either side of the nose wheel bay.  Plus a combination of four 500 lb bombs or two 1,000 lb bombs

 

The Mk 2 is said to be the same but also possibly 4 Matra pods with 24 2inch unguided rockets or 2 Bulpups AMG-12A's or 4 napalm tanks

 

Hope that assists

 

ps - spotted an interesting photo of an F(AW) Mk1 landing on HMS Centaur 24/2/63 in the Med near Suez and the load out is interesting.  A drop tank on the outermost port pylon, 2 inch rocket launchers on both port "middle" pylon and another 2 inch rocket launcher on the starboard innermost pylon with what looks like a Firestreak on the starboard middle pylon.  The other pylons look unused.

[Selwyn]

8 minutes ago, JohnT said:

Richard Franks book states armament for the F(AW) Mk1 as 4 DH Firestreak and later Red Top or 28 Microcell unguided missiles carried in 2 retractable trays one either side of the nose wheel bay.  Plus a combination of four 500 lb bombs or two 1,000 lb bombs

 

The Mk 2 is said to be the same but also possibly 4 Matra pods with 24 2inch unguided rockets or 2 Bulpups AMG-12A's or 4 napalm tanks

 

Hope that assists

The Royal navy used 2" rockets in 2" rocket pods. These are not SNEB rockets, and they are not carried in Matra pods !

The RAF matra pod (155) with 18x 68mm SNEB rockets were not cleared for use on aircraft carriers as they could be fired  on deck  by induced currents from the ships radars.  RAF Harriers in the Falklands war had to carry 2" rockets and pods instead of Matra/SNEB  because of this reason.

 

Selwyn

[71chally]

1 hour ago, Meatbox8 said:

Hello all

 

I am currently building the MPM Sea Vixen FAW.1, not a particularly enjoyable build but, hey, a Sea Vixen is a Sea Vixen. 

Unless its an MPM or Dragon kit!

 

When you look at Vixen in service shots you notice that the weapon loading was very rarely uniform, or that all the pylons were used, the drop tanks were carried regularly.

Single 2" rocket pod or Firestreak missile looks good, the FAW.1 only had the retractable undernose rocket launchers.

Bullpup could be carried on the port outer pylon, with the associated guidance pod carried on the stb mid pylon.

Red Beard could be carried as well,  I think on the port outer, but will need to check refs to confirm pylon.

 

[Meatbox8]

34 minutes ago, Selwyn said:

The Royal navy used 2" rockets in 2" rocket pods. These are not SNEB rockets, and they are not carried in Matra pods !

The RAF matra pod (155) with 18x 68mm SNEB rockets were not cleared for use on aircraft carriers as they could be fired  on deck  by induced currents from the ships radars.  RAF Harriers in the Falklands war had to carry 2" rockets and pods instead of Matra/SNEB  because of this reason.

 

Selwyn

Thanks Selwyn.  Clearly RAF/RN ordnance is not my strong suit and probably why nothing really came up on my Google search for "Sea Vixen Matra SNEB"!  So were these 2" rocket pods carried on the Mk1 (I've seen plenty of pics of Mk2s carrying rocket pods) and are they the same as those used on the Hunter (as these are where my spares came from)?

[Meatbox8]

14 minutes ago, 71chally said:

Unless its an MPM or Dragon kit!

 

When you look at Vixen in service shots you notice that the weapon loading was very rarely uniform, or that all the pylons were used, the drop tanks were carried regularly.

Single 2" rocket pod or Firestreak missile looks good, the FAW.1 only had the retractable undernose rocket launchers.

Bullpup could be carried on the port outer pylon, with the associated guidance pod carried on the stb mid pylon.

Red Beard could be carried as well,  I think on the port outer, but will need to check refs to confirm pylon.

 

Ha ha.  Quite, although at least the MPM one looks a bit like a Sea Vixen, unlike the Dragon one. 

[Selwyn]

4 minutes ago, Meatbox8 said:

Thanks Selwyn.  Clearly RAF/RN ordnance is not my strong suit and probably why nothing really came up on my Google search for "Sea Vixen Matra SNEB"!  So were these 2" rocket pods carried on the Mk1 (I've seen plenty of pics of Mk2s carrying rocket pods) and are they the same as those used on the Hunter (as these are where my spares came from)?

No idea if the Mk1 carried 2" rocket pods.  Not knowing what kit of the hunter you are talking about does not help. The best test is counting the holes at the front. 18 holes indicates Matra / Sneb. A lot of hunter kits have rocket pods not used  by the RAF or RN. Have a saerch through this site there are lots of threads about rocket pods.

 

Selwyn

[Meatbox8]

59 minutes ago, JohnT said:

Richard Franks book states armament for the F(AW) Mk1 as 4 DH Firestreak and later Red Top or 28 Microcell unguided missiles carried in 2 retractable trays one either side of the nose wheel bay.  Plus a combination of four 500 lb bombs or two 1,000 lb bombs

 

The Mk 2 is said to be the same but also possibly 4 Matra pods with 24 2inch unguided rockets or 2 Bulpups AMG-12A's or 4 napalm tanks

 

Hope that assists

 

ps - spotted an interesting photo of an F(AW) Mk1 landing on HMS Centaur 24/2/63 in the Med near Suez and the load out is interesting.  A drop tank on the outermost port pylon, 2 inch rocket launchers on both port "middle" pylon and another 2 inch rocket launcher on the starboard innermost pylon with what looks like a Firestreak on the starboard middle pylon.  The other pylons look unused.

Yes, the load outs are really quite varied in their combinations.  I'll probably want to go for something symmetrical coz I'm a bit funny that way.  Interesting that Franks says the Mk1 later carried Redtops.  Never seen a picture of one doing so.  Somewhat academic for me as it happens as my only spare Redtops that aren't going to a Lightning are for my Xtrakit Mk2 (that's assuming I don't lose the will to live while building the mk1).  

[Meatbox8]

1 minute ago, Selwyn said:

No idea if the Mk1 carried 2" rocket pods.  Not knowing what kit of the hunter you are talking about does not help. The best test is counting the holes at the front. 18 holes indicates Matra / Sneb. A lot of hunter kits have rocket pods not used  by the RAF or RN. Have a saerch through this site there are lots of threads about rocket pods.

 

Selwyn

I think these pods came from the Revell Hunter.  They have 14 holes.  I probably have the Airfix Hunter pods somewhere. 

[JohnT]

1 hour ago, Selwyn said:

No idea if the Mk1 carried 2" rocket pods.  Not knowing what kit of the hunter you are talking about does not help. The best test is counting the holes at the front. 18 holes indicates Matra / Sneb. A lot of hunter kits have rocket pods not used  by the RAF or RN. Have a saerch through this site there are lots of threads about rocket pods.

 

Selwyn

 

2 hours ago, Selwyn said:

The Royal navy used 2" rockets in 2" rocket pods. These are not SNEB rockets, and they are not carried in Matra pods !

The RAF matra pod (155) with 18x 68mm SNEB rockets were not cleared for use on aircraft carriers as they could be fired  on deck  by induced currents from the ships radars.  RAF Harriers in the Falklands war had to carry 2" rockets and pods instead of Matra/SNEB  because of this reason.

 

Selwyn

Selwyn

 

wonder if Franks has his pods right but just calling them by the wrong names??   I can see the  practical reason for not using the Matra pods given that explanation.  An uncommanded firing, even if they missed the matelots would result in a bit of uncommanded bowel  evacuation

 

Just goes to show you can't trust everything you read regardless even when from learned authors in books!

 

regards

 

John

 

 

 

 

[Seahawk]

2" rocket pods were used only by the FAA with the exception of the RAF Harriers embarked for the Falklands war.  They are noticeably fatter than SNEB pods.  Most kits with British post-war rocket pods in them are for RAF aircraft (Hawk, Jaguar, Harrier) and therefore feature SNEB pods.  At least in 1/72 scale you're thrown onto the aftermarket for 2" pods: Odds'n'Ordnance used to do them and I think Freightdog still do.  I take great pains to keep 1/48 below my radar horizon but it would be disappointing if the Airfix 1/48 Sea Vixen did not feature them.   

[Selwyn]

16 minutes ago, Seahawk said:

2" rocket pods were used only by the FAA with the exception of the RAF Harriers embarked for the Falklands war.  They are noticeably fatter than SNEB pods.  Most kits with British post-war rocket pods in them are for RAF aircraft (Hawk, Jaguar, Harrier) and therefore feature SNEB pods.  At least in 1/72 scale you're thrown onto the aftermarket for 2" pods: Odds'n'Ordnance used to do them and I think Freightdog still do.  I take great pains to keep 1/48 below my radar horizon but it would be disappointing if the Airfix 1/48 Sea Vixen did not feature them.   

The Airfix 1/48 Vixen does have 2" pods but the noses are  very dodgy the rocket noses are visible which they are not in real life  And I understand  a lot are short shots. The old Airfix harrier GR3 comes with2" pods and the pod noses are much better. 

 

Selwyn

[71chally]

4 hours ago, Meatbox8 said:

According to the technical data section of Warpaint publication (which only has a couple of pics of the FAW.1 btw)  the FAW.1 could carry up to four pods of 24x2 inch rockets (SNEBs?) amongst other things.

There were 32 2" rockets to the RN pod, and yes they were used by FAW.1s as well as 2s up to 4 x pods, I think they were manufactured by GKN 

 

I would really look for photos of FAW.1s to get a good idea of how they were regularly configured in service, light and odd (an 1 x RP & 1 x missile for example) loading seemed the norm.

 

if you're feeling adventurous, you could even add (and make!) a recon pod or buddy AAR pod.

[fatalbert]

The new Airfix Phantom will have the correct rocket pods when it arrives.

[Thud4444]

Meatbox what are some of the kits problems?  I was just about to order one.

[canberra kid]

John

[71chally]

51 minutes ago, Thud4444 said:

Meatbox what are some of the kits problems?  I was just about to order one.

Shape mainly, this and the Dragon/Cyberhobby kit really got the belly of the aircraft wrong, amongst other more minor details

The most accurate kit is the High Planes one, but it is also the hardest to put together!

[XV107]

 

From the IWM (copyright permissions allow embedding); Sea Vixen, June 1961 [the sub is HMS Turpin, according to the caption]

 

 

If you go to the IWM page itself (Search for Sea Vixen and narrow the search down to collections) you can - of course - get larger images than this. Which may not be helpful when you see the design of the rocket pods, but it at least gives an idea of some of the 

Edited October 24, 2017 by XV107

[Meatbox8]

4 hours ago, Thud4444 said:

Meatbox what are some of the kits problems?  I was just about to order one.

Well, they're not really that bad.  It's just not a fall-together type kit so there's quite a lot of filling and sanding at most of the major joints.  The two booms and outer wings are just butt jointed so need something to strengthen the links. The booms are of a slightly wider circumference at the joint  so a degree of blending is required.  Much filling and sanding at the quite difficult to access intakes.  Also, the ejection seats are way under scale, looking more like 1/96th or something.  Quite odd really.  Anyway, I ordered a Pavla replacement for the pilot's seat but it's not so much of a an issue for the navigator/radar operator as, unless you pose his access trap-door open you can't see it anyway.  As I mentioned above the kit comes with no ordnance at all other than drop tanks.  On the upside it has some nice interior detail, some good resin and a great decal sheet and, for my money, it does look like a Sea Vixen - certainly better than pics I've seen of the Cyberhobby kit, which looks sort of cartoonish.    So, all in all I would recommend it.  I am an especially lazy and impatient modeller and really like getting to the bit when you put 'stickers' on it. 

 

I think it was my wishful thinking talking as I'd love a state-of-the-art model of the type. Others might be able to throw some light on accuracy but for me it definitely does look like a Sea Vixen

[Meatbox8]

6 hours ago, fatalbert said:

The new Airfix Phantom will have the correct rocket pods when it arrives.

Ah ha.  Interesting.  I plan on building my Phantom as a pure fighter so I'll have those for my FAW.2. 

[Meatbox8]

8 hours ago, Seahawk said:

2" rocket pods were used only by the FAA with the exception of the RAF Harriers embarked for the Falklands war.  They are noticeably fatter than SNEB pods.  Most kits with British post-war rocket pods in them are for RAF aircraft (Hawk, Jaguar, Harrier) and therefore feature SNEB pods.  At least in 1/72 scale you're thrown onto the aftermarket for 2" pods: Odds'n'Ordnance used to do them and I think Freightdog still do.  I take great pains to keep 1/48 below my radar horizon but it would be disappointing if the Airfix 1/48 Sea Vixen did not feature them.   

Thanks.  I think I read somewhere that Freightdog took over the Odds and Ordnance range.

[Meatbox8]

5 hours ago, canberra kid said:

John

Thank you for that, but isn't that a mk2?  Actually that's very useful because the kit's instructions are a bit vague as to the correct placement of the pylons.

Edited October 24, 2017 by Meatbox8