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JeffreyK

SMW now enforcing liability insurance

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Hi,

 

as anyone exhibiting as branch, SIG or trader at SMW 2017 may know, IPMS UK now want to see proof of public liability insurance for the event. Requirement for insurance has been in the small print for years (for ever?), but this seems to be the first time it is actually policed.

My big question is: where does this leave all those small companies attending SMW from all over the world, from outside the UK?

As a UK company, even if you don't have general business insurance, it's relatively easy to obtain a trader's insurance just for a single event at the weekend (at a cost of course...), but I don't think this will work for a non-UK company with a non-UK address and non-UK payment details.

Any insurance-savvy people around?

Would there be a way for IPMS UK acting as a go-between, providing the legal framework of address etc. and the overseas company just paying an additional fee for the insurance premium?

 

Cheers

Jeffrey

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I can't answer directly but businesses can become associated members of the IPMS and perhaps the IPMS insurance which covers IPMS branches & SIGs might also cover the business?

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Ah, ok, didn't know about this. I've sent an email to SMW head Richard Farrar, perhaps he has an idea as well (although he'd be very busy around this time of the year).

 

J

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It's not really anything to do with the IPMS. As a business exhibiting you should have PLI. 

 

If you are intending to attend shows in another country, you check that your insurance covers you for that when you take it out. It normally doesn't cost very much, especially if you compare it with the bill you could be facing if the worst happens.  

 

I'm not really sure why this is all of a sudden an issue, it's been the norm for a long time, but they have only just asked for proof. 

 

I'm putting on some small none model show, shows at a village hall and we are asking everyone for proof of their PLI. We also have to take out PLI for the event as a whole. 

 

Paul   

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I think its more to do with the new owners of the Telford Exhibition/Conference Centre

~ anyone still packing up after the show closes on Sunday will have to wear a hi-vis vest/jacket

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10 minutes ago, Black Knight said:

~ anyone still packing up after the show closes on Sunday will have to wear a hi-vis vest/jacket

Ah, the national dress of Great Britain.

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9 minutes ago, Black Knight said:

I think its more to do with the new owners of the Telford Exhibition/Conference Centre

~ anyone still packing up after the show closes on Sunday will have to wear a hi-vis vest/jacket

Why? Do they turn the lights off? Do their rules state the high viz has to be worn and be visible? If not, wear one and put a jacket over it.

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And all this while I thought we were the country with many more lawyers than necessary.  Seems as if its a worldwide plague.

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1 hour ago, little-cars said:

It's not really anything to do with the IPMS. As a business exhibiting you should have PLI. 

 

If you are intending to attend shows in another country, you check that your insurance covers you for that when you take it out. It normally doesn't cost very much, especially if you compare it with the bill you could be facing if the worst happens.  

 

I'm not really sure why this is all of a sudden an issue, it's been the norm for a long time, but they have only just asked for proof. 

 

I'm putting on some small none model show, shows at a village hall and we are asking everyone for proof of their PLI. We also have to take out PLI for the event as a whole. 

 

Paul   

I highly doubt that overseas exhibitors (many of which only come here just for SMW) have PLI that cover them outside their country of residence and I highly doubt that it won't cost very much to have it either, if at all possible. My business insurer for instance only covers me for the UK, non-UK cover isn't even available and insurers that do offer it charge an arm and a leg. I think the reverse is true for non-UK insurers being asked to cover for UK activities.

Many exhibitors at SMW are tiny companies who already make a huge effort to travel to the UK just to have a presence at SMW and huge insurance premiums could easily kill the whole thing. I already know of one reputable company who might pull out due to this problem.

I myself might have this problem next year as well.

 

Jeffrey

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I've been in contact with some overseas traders whom, I can confirm, have been unable to get insurance.

 

I even did some ringing around myself to try to help but only established that Lloyds as an underwriter is not licensed to cover companies from several countries who are booked in for Telford - so they're stuck because Lloyds seems to be who every broker I tried uses. :(

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16 hours ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

I've been in contact with some overseas traders whom, I can confirm, have been unable to get insurance.

 

I even did some ringing around myself to try to help but only established that Lloyds as an underwriter is not licensed to cover companies from several countries who are booked in for Telford - so they're stuck because Lloyds seems to be who every broker I tried uses. :(

Exactly my hunch and why I think it was naive by the SMW staff to think this would be business as usual. If they can't come up with some sort of solution then this could be the end of many overseas exhibitors' presence at SMW and that would be an extremely regrettable situation.

 

J

 

Edited for auto correction error that made the post ambiguous

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I think there are many points we need to remember about this question of Public Liability Insurance and IPMS/Scale Model World.

 

1    We live in a world where people expect to be compensated if, not by their own making, they are injured or killed.  Gone are the days where it was considered ‘bad luck’ and ‘let the widow beg on the streets’!  That is why I pay to have my own life insurance as a last resort.

 

2     We also live in a world where legal firms make a living by encouraging compensation claims – witness the recent surge in claims for illness whilst on holiday in an all-inclusive resort.

 

3      If a trader at Scale Model World does not have public liability insurance and has insufficient assets to meet any compensation awarded by a court it might be argued in court that IPMS and the Centre were negligent and therefore liable.

 

4       We have to remember that IPMS are the customers of the Telford Centre and have to follow the rules laid down by that Centre – be they as obvious that there is no access to the Centre overnight, no sleeping in cars in the Centre car park (I can remember a couple of modellers trying this a few years ago!) and no cooking over disposable BBQs in the Halls – again tried a few years ago!!   The requirement for all using the Centre for trading purposes at any type of event be it a model show, a dog show or a wedding show to have Public Liability Insurance has been there for years and the IPMS trader booking forms have had it as one of the booking conditions for many years.  What has now changed is that the Centre want to see evidence that this rule is being followed and it is obvious that by the reaction of a minority of traders that it has not.

 

5        I am not sure if IPMS can arrange a generic public liability insurance for traders: 

 

a)    Public liability insurance will vary in cost according to the dangers associated with the product being traded (paints and chemicals would attract a higher premium than decal sheets) so by their nature insurance companies will look at the worse possible case scenario and multiple the cost of that risk  by the number of traders!

 

B)   Public liability insurance always requires a specific risk assessment to be carried out – there can not be a generic risk assessment by definition as each trader’s risks are unique – even booksellers have different types of display units!

 

c)  If IPMS did manage to arrange a generic Public liability insurance for traders how they split the premium between different traders?  Who, in that band of overworked volunteers, will find the time to assess each trader’s risks?

 

d)  The simple answer could be for IPMS to buy this insurance and cover the cost but will that equate to higher entry fees for you and I so traders can make profit without paying their costs?

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Buying insurance for Traders has being mentioned on the IPMS face book page and has being rejected 

So some want to come to the show without insurance and trade   -so what happens if some one is injured by your stand ,do they have to  carry the costs themselves ??

How would you feel if your van/car was written off by some body who has no insurance and all cost were borne by you 

The IPMS is run for the benefit of its members not the public or traders 

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The issue of PLI has been present for some time. It has been suggested by the guy whose stall I'm on that membership of the Market Traders Association will get round this problem. I'm no expert. The hi-viz clothing is required for set up & break down of the stalls both Friday & Sunday. About time too judging by a well known trader who almost got me a couple of years back. Yes Panzer I'm sure it was intended.

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1 minute ago, chris57 said:

About time too judging by a well known trader who almost got me a couple of years back. Yes Panzer I'm sure it was intended.

I never thought that buddy -but I know what you mean the aisle dont seem very wide when theres a van in them 

 

Best remind my guys to have them with them  both days 

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IPMS UK invites traders from all over the world to attend and surely it's in their interest to bring as many to the show as possible.

I'm sure that many overseas traders weren't even fully aware of (if at all) or understand the requirement of insurance or the legal terminology as in previous years. It wasn't policed so it wasn't given much thought.

While I strongly resent the current blame culture, I fully understand IPMS UK's situation and also the requirement for insurance. HOWEVER the effort it takes an overseas trader to in try and obtain insurance just for attending SMW has been severely underestimated by the organisers I think and the stance of "get it or leave" without further assistance will mean many will chose the latter, leave. 

Would the market traders' association in the UK accept foreign members? As I said, it's not about UK businesses, obtaining event related short-term PLI is not a problem for UK businesses attending a UK event. It's the overseas exhibitors and traders I'm talking about.

 

I think the application deadline for exhibitors could be brought forward a bit and anyone wanting to trade and cannot provide evidence for insurance could be required to pay a certain extra fee which will pay for a blanket PLI obtained by IPMS, according to the number of traders that require it.

 

I feel strongly about this as I don't want to see bean counters and lawyers get the better of this great event. The legislation is in place and needs to be complied with, but how this is done makes all the difference.

J

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3 hours ago, JeffreyK said:

Hi,

 

as anyone exhibiting as branch, SIG or trader at SMW 2017 may know, IPMS UK now want to see proof of public liability insurance for the event. Requirement for insurance has been in the small print for years (for ever?), but this seems to be the first time it is actually policed.

My big question is: where does this leave all those small companies attending SMW from all over the world, from outside the UK?

As a UK company, even if you don't have general business insurance, it's relatively easy to obtain a trader's insurance just for a single event at the weekend (at a cost of course...), but I don't think this will work for a non-UK company with a non-UK address and non-UK payment details.

Any insurance-savvy people around?

Would there be a way for IPMS UK acting as a go-between, providing the legal framework of address etc. and the overseas company just paying an additional fee for the insurance premium?

 

Cheers

Jeffrey

Hi Jeffrey,

nothing much I can add, I think czechnavy has hit most of the pertinent points.

 

Look at it this way, it for YOUR benefit, and, if you HAVEN'T got PLI, you can NOT trade at SMW, it's that simple.

Regarding Hi-Viz, I'll take it you've never marshalled LGV and cars in a confined space? Believe me you need ALL the help you can get!

 

Paul

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1 hour ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

I've been in contact with some overseas traders whom, I can confirm, have been unable to get insurance.

 

I even did some ringing around myself to try to help but only established that Lloyds as an underwriter is not licensed to cover companies from several countries who are booked in for Telford - so they're stuck because Lloyds seems to be who every broker I tried uses. :(

Did you try the specialist market trader insurance companies  or just general insurers

 

2 minutes ago, JeffreyK said:

IPMS UK invites traders from all over the world to attend and surely it's in their interest to bring as many to the show as possible.

I'm sure that many overseas traders weren't even fully aware of (if at all) or understand the requirement of insurance or the legal terminology as in previous years. It wasn't policed so it wasn't given much thought.

While I strongly resent the current blame culture, I fully understand IPMS UK's situation and also the requirement for insurance. HOWEVER the effort it takes an overseas trader to in try and obtain insurance just for attending SMW has been severely underestimated by the organisers I think and the stance of "get it or leave" without further assistance will mean many will chose the latter, leave. 

Would the market traders' association in the UK accept foreign members? As I said, it's not about UK businesses, obtaining event related short-term PLI is not a problem for UK businesses attending a UK event. It's the overseas exhibitors and traders I'm talking about.

 

I think the application deadline for exhibitors could be brought forward a bit and anyone wanting to trade and cannot provide evidence for insurance could be required to pay a certain extra fee which will pay for a blanket PLI obtained by IPMS, according to the number of traders that require it.

 

I feel strongly about this as I don't want to see bean counters and lawyers get the better of this great event. The legislation is in place and needs to be complied with, but how this is done makes all the difference.

J

Market traders association only deals with people living in the UK.   But there are specialist market trader insurance companies out there at the end of a quick google search.  

 

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6 minutes ago, little-cars said:

Did you try the specialist market trader insurance companies  or just general insurers

 

Market traders association only deals with people living in the UK.   But there are specialist market trader insurance companies out there at the end of a quick google search.  

 

 

Hi Paul,

 

I went looking for specialist brokers that advertised temporary PL products. I rang about 3 and gave up.

 

One of them explained it was a country related issue. They could do exactly the sort of temporary cover required but their issue was the underwriter's licensing. Lloyds apparently can underwrite such cover for around 70-80 (depending who I asked) countries, but I was specifically trying to get a lead for several South Korean companies and an American one. Lloyds can underwrite neither.

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2 hours ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

 

Hi Paul,

 

I went looking for specialist brokers that advertised temporary PL products. I rang about 3 and gave up.

 

One of them explained it was a country related issue. They could do exactly the sort of temporary cover required but their issue was the underwriter's licensing. Lloyds apparently can underwrite such cover for around 70-80 (depending who I asked) countries, but I was specifically trying to get a lead for several South Korean companies and an American one. Lloyds can underwrite neither.

Stallholder insurance specialists would be the ones to contact.  They will have seen this problem before. 

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This may be the first time they are aking to see proof of PLI but its been required for several years now, so it really shouldn't be a problem should it? Could it be that some people have been lying about their coverage before now? 

 

In my mind, if you haven't got PLI then you don't attend shows as a trader. If overseas traders can't get PLI, then I am very sorry for them but they can't come.

 

I will be one of those people in a hi-viz jacket (and gloves, mustn't forget the gloves - those wooden tables can be a 'beast' [polite alternative for original 'b' word] for splinters!) helping to pack up the show on Sunday so I WANT everything done properly for my own safety and security. @czechnavy hit the nail on the head - this isn't petty bureaucracy, its the cost of doing business in the modern litigious world. If anything went wrong and it was proved that IPMS were in any way negligent, then it would be the end of SMW, so they HAVE to do it correctly and if that means making sure everyone who says they are covered are REALLY covered, then so be it.

Edited by Kallisti

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I suspect that is indeed the case. 

 

International coverage issues aside, I have to say I was surprised overall to learn that so many UK registered companies are uninsured. The Public Liability cover cost us buttons and it was the first thing we did when we started up. Even Product Liability was not expensive until the USA was mentioned and it went up 10-fold. Mostly though, I wanted coverage against all the same fire and theft type risks that exist for house and car. Losing tens of thousands of pounds worth of stock in an accident would end us otherwise...

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It seems to me it’s about taking responsibilty for your actions. If the rules state you must be insured, then if you can’t meet the rule sorry but that’s it. Perhaps overseas traders could have been assisted with the advice to enable them to get insurance, but I’m not sure IPMS have the time or knowledge to do so, presumably exhibition centres enforcing the rules might have the knowledge to pass on? 

Part of the issue seems to be small ‘one man band’ businesses who are either part time or just about making a living, to try and turn a profit they can’t/won’t do all the things professionals should. Please note I’m not having a go at any business specifically trading at SMW.

Some years ago I worked for a football league club as club photographer, part of the granting of a licence to work was mandatory PLI. Every ground I went to I had to show my licence number on my application to get a press pass. I was lucky, working for the club I counted as staff and the club insured me, but I got cover so I could do other clubs games. Worryingly the cover was very cheap, but I met plenty of people working at non league grounds with no insurance at all. I also did work for local papers and a few weddings, again I knew a fair few photographers who ‘winged it’ and to keep costs down took as many cost cutting chances as they could. The long and the short of it is if you’re in business and going to be serious about your business you need to be professional, that includes following rules. I appreciate a foreign trader doing one show might struggle, but a UK trader without insurance is unforgivable.

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14 hours ago, JeffreyK said:

Exactly my hunch and why I think it was naive by the SMW staff to think this would be business as usual. If they can't come up with some sort of solution then this could be the end of my overseas exhibitors' presence at SMW and that would be an extremely regrettable situation.

 

J

 

 

There has been a requirement for all traders to have PLI for years. The fact that many haven't had it has exposed the trader and potentially IPMS UK to action if anyone is injured in that case. If you have been exhibiting at telford without it, then not only have you been in breach of your contract terms, you have also have been risking the future of the organisation and the event.

 

People bleating about IPMS now enforcing the terms of their contracts gets little sympathy.

 

What are IPMS meant to do? Just ignore people who are blatantly ignoring the terms of their legal contracts, and therefore being in breach of the terms laid down by TEC?

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