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Bf109 G-14 JG 4 "black 15" werk nummer? 46106 or ?30630?


Troy Smith

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I have asked this  on Hyperscale too  as there are more 109  buffs there as well

http://www.network54.com/Forum/149674/message/1508590651/Bf109+G-14+JG+4+%26quot%3Bblack+15%26quot%3B++werk+nummer-+46106+or+-30630-

 

OK, while searching for something else,ran across this

 

37573719360_5934207e80_o.jpgBf109G JG4 15 by losethekibble, on Flickr

 

Werk Nummer look like ?30630

EDIT - theFlickr pics list it as "Black 15" but the port side "new" shot show the number and gruppe bar to look lighter than the black of the RD band, what are the other options? blue?


EDIT

the Flickr pics below suggest a Erla built plane (see comments in first link below)

 

werknummer blocke

https://me109.info/web.php?lang=en&auth=e&name=werknummernbloecke

Quote

460 300 - 460 670  Bf 109 G-14    Erla Maschinenwerk GmbH, Leipzig

461 100 - 461 999  Bf 109 G-14    Erla Maschinenwerk GmbH, Leipzig

 



So, a search for JG4 Bf109's turned up these, which look to be the same plane, but list the werk nummer as 46106

on the very useful Flickr by Marc-André Haldimann

https://www.flickr.com/photos/28092068@N03/albums/72157631640873520/with/7732058382/

 

8466410403_3267499c88_o.pngBf 109 G-14 W.Nr. 461 06. "Schwarze 15", 14./JG 4, Jüterbog (?), 1 May 1945. Source: I. M. Shagin via TOCH Forum. by Marc-André Haldimann, on Flickr

8466410133_d06364593c_o.pngBf 109 G-14 W.Nr. 461 06. "Schwarze 15", 14./JG 4, Jüterbog (?), 1 May 1945. Source: I. M. Shagin via TOCH Forum. by Marc-André Haldimann, on Flickr



and this famous fake explosion?
Bf 109 G-14 W.Nr. 461 06.

Is this old news? Or the pic with a mostly readable werk nummer new?

 

Hope of  interest

 

PS this posted on Hyperscale

Quote

best guess is an Erla-built G-10 variant with the Werk.Nr. 490630. The starboard side photos show the characteristic second hatch for access to the M.W.50 tank that was absent from all other Manufacturers G-10 and G-14 airframes. In this configuration, neither x46106 nor x30630 are valid W.Nr's.

 

maybe some BM  109 buffs can pitch in, @FalkeEins  ? 

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First i’d say “Blue” 15. Not sure about werk numbers so cant help you with those. The explosion sure looks like a Real White Phosphorus grenade to me, not fake. White Phosphorus or commonly referred to as “willy pete” grenades were common place from WW2 - Vietnam” . Im thinking it could be some enterprising Military film crew making a staged shot using a Willy pete grenade as a stand in for a crashing 109 in either a set of photo’s to be printed in Stars and Stripes. Or possibly for use in a Newsreel. That way the Taxpayers and war bond holders could see where there hard earned money was spent.

Admittedly i gave my abstract view of things. So if you dont like my Theory chalk it up to that. You don't need to contradict it, just ignore my theory. Please save us both a headache. 😉  

 

Dennis

Edited by Corsairfoxfouruncle
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4 hours ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

The explosion sure looks like a Real White Phosphorus grenade to me, not fake.

Hi Dennis

 

I don't doubt the explosion is real,  but the photo looks like a collage of two images

7732058382_a6cd846cb2_o.jpg

with the 109 fuselage cut out of another photo and then  blended in,  note the lack of tailwheel.

It's possible it's been bulldozed over,  but compare the two images, note similarity in position of elevator, light visible through the rudder hinge and trim tab, as well as the general illumination of the  airframe.

If I was making a  photo montage, it would be  easier to skip the tailwheel stub....   th

37573719360_5934207e80_o.jpg

 

4 hours ago, tango98 said:

in making out 0630 on the fin that it's an Erla-built G-10 from the 490000 – 490800 W.Nr. range.

cheers Dave

any thoughts on the staffel colour?

I think I can see the back of distinctive Erla cowling, for those puzzled

36245945925_c8d28b286d_o.jpgType110Left-791x1024 by losethekibble, on Flickr

 

cheers

T

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Im not so sure, It looks like it was propped up on an angle by some kind of machinery. There are what appear to be crates underneath holding it up at what is obviously a high angle. In my mind it is possible while staging this if in fact it is staged the tail wheel might have been ripped off by accident. The lower fuselage where it should be has an odd cut into it. Is that from an opening ? If my memory serves me still, didnt some 109’s have retractable tail wheels ? Or is It Possibly airbrushed or blurred out. The daylight im seeing in the trim tab could very well be just that or could be part of the White Phosphorus flash. Either way there is no way to definitively say unless someone can find someone connected to the taking of the photo. I freely admit its definitely a constructed photo. Wether in a photo lab or in the field. Again no way to know for sure. 

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Hi Troy,

The aircraft is definitely from the IV.Gruppe as evidenced by the Tilde symbol applied over the air defence bands and the bands do look to be the black white black used by JG 4.

Late in the war Gruppe strength had been increased to four Staffeln, their colours being 13., White, 14., Red, 15., Yellow and Blue for the 16. Staffel. Based on the greyscale values of the image, IMHO both the number and the Tilde symbol appear to be either red or blue as both are a much lighter grey tone than both the black of the Swastika and the outer bands of the air defence tail band. 

So my WAG (Wild A** Guess) is that it is quite possibly Red or Blue 15 of either the 14 or 16 Staffel of JG 4.

JG 4 were operating a number of Erla-built G-10s in early 1945, several of which are listed in the QM returns for the period.

 

HTH

Cheers

 

Dave

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My guess is also for an ERLA built G10, that photo of the port side would appear to show the ERLA engine cowl quite nicely. However on a cautionary note the photo from the Stbd side does show hints of the crank cover bulges on the lower forward cowl which the ERLA G10 engine cowls shouldn't have so make of that what you will!

Are the ERLA G10's now not so clear cut as we thought or are we seeing something that isn't really there on one of those photos?

 

Duncan B

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1 hour ago, Duncan B said:

However on a cautionary note the photo from the Stbd side does show hints of the crank cover bulges on the lower forward cowl which the ERLA G10 engine cowls shouldn't have so make of that what you will!

Could that not just be the oil cooler housing and bottom cowling hanging loose?:hmmm:

 

Mart

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