Troy Smith Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 I have asked this on Hyperscale too as there are more 109 buffs there as well http://www.network54.com/Forum/149674/message/1508590651/Bf109+G-14+JG+4+%26quot%3Bblack+15%26quot%3B++werk+nummer-+46106+or+-30630- OK, while searching for something else,ran across this Bf109G JG4 15 by losethekibble, on Flickr Werk Nummer look like ?30630 EDIT - theFlickr pics list it as "Black 15" but the port side "new" shot show the number and gruppe bar to look lighter than the black of the RD band, what are the other options? blue? EDIT the Flickr pics below suggest a Erla built plane (see comments in first link below) werknummer blocke https://me109.info/web.php?lang=en&auth=e&name=werknummernbloecke Quote 460 300 - 460 670 Bf 109 G-14 Erla Maschinenwerk GmbH, Leipzig 461 100 - 461 999 Bf 109 G-14 Erla Maschinenwerk GmbH, Leipzig So, a search for JG4 Bf109's turned up these, which look to be the same plane, but list the werk nummer as 46106 on the very useful Flickr by Marc-André Haldimann https://www.flickr.com/photos/28092068@N03/albums/72157631640873520/with/7732058382/ Bf 109 G-14 W.Nr. 461 06. "Schwarze 15", 14./JG 4, Jüterbog (?), 1 May 1945. Source: I. M. Shagin via TOCH Forum. by Marc-André Haldimann, on FlickrBf 109 G-14 W.Nr. 461 06. "Schwarze 15", 14./JG 4, Jüterbog (?), 1 May 1945. Source: I. M. Shagin via TOCH Forum. by Marc-André Haldimann, on Flickrand this famous fake explosion? Is this old news? Or the pic with a mostly readable werk nummer new? Hope of interest PS this posted on Hyperscale Quote best guess is an Erla-built G-10 variant with the Werk.Nr. 490630. The starboard side photos show the characteristic second hatch for access to the M.W.50 tank that was absent from all other Manufacturers G-10 and G-14 airframes. In this configuration, neither x46106 nor x30630 are valid W.Nr's. maybe some BM 109 buffs can pitch in, @FalkeEins ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corsairfoxfouruncle Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 (edited) First i’d say “Blue” 15. Not sure about werk numbers so cant help you with those. The explosion sure looks like a Real White Phosphorus grenade to me, not fake. White Phosphorus or commonly referred to as “willy pete” grenades were common place from WW2 - Vietnam” . Im thinking it could be some enterprising Military film crew making a staged shot using a Willy pete grenade as a stand in for a crashing 109 in either a set of photo’s to be printed in Stars and Stripes. Or possibly for use in a Newsreel. That way the Taxpayers and war bond holders could see where there hard earned money was spent. Admittedly i gave my abstract view of things. So if you dont like my Theory chalk it up to that. You don't need to contradict it, just ignore my theory. Please save us both a headache. 😉 Dennis Edited October 21, 2017 by Corsairfoxfouruncle Additional Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tango98 Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 (edited) Troy, I'm making out 0630 on the fin that it's an Erla-built G-10 from the 490000 – 490800 W.Nr. range. Cheers Dave Edited October 22, 2017 by tango98 Misquote removal 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted October 21, 2017 Author Share Posted October 21, 2017 4 hours ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said: The explosion sure looks like a Real White Phosphorus grenade to me, not fake. Hi Dennis I don't doubt the explosion is real, but the photo looks like a collage of two images with the 109 fuselage cut out of another photo and then blended in, note the lack of tailwheel. It's possible it's been bulldozed over, but compare the two images, note similarity in position of elevator, light visible through the rudder hinge and trim tab, as well as the general illumination of the airframe. If I was making a photo montage, it would be easier to skip the tailwheel stub.... th 4 hours ago, tango98 said: in making out 0630 on the fin that it's an Erla-built G-10 from the 490000 – 490800 W.Nr. range. cheers Dave any thoughts on the staffel colour? I think I can see the back of distinctive Erla cowling, for those puzzled Type110Left-791x1024 by losethekibble, on Flickr cheers T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corsairfoxfouruncle Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 Im not so sure, It looks like it was propped up on an angle by some kind of machinery. There are what appear to be crates underneath holding it up at what is obviously a high angle. In my mind it is possible while staging this if in fact it is staged the tail wheel might have been ripped off by accident. The lower fuselage where it should be has an odd cut into it. Is that from an opening ? If my memory serves me still, didnt some 109’s have retractable tail wheels ? Or is It Possibly airbrushed or blurred out. The daylight im seeing in the trim tab could very well be just that or could be part of the White Phosphorus flash. Either way there is no way to definitively say unless someone can find someone connected to the taking of the photo. I freely admit its definitely a constructed photo. Wether in a photo lab or in the field. Again no way to know for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tango98 Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 Hi Troy, The aircraft is definitely from the IV.Gruppe as evidenced by the Tilde symbol applied over the air defence bands and the bands do look to be the black white black used by JG 4. Late in the war Gruppe strength had been increased to four Staffeln, their colours being 13., White, 14., Red, 15., Yellow and Blue for the 16. Staffel. Based on the greyscale values of the image, IMHO both the number and the Tilde symbol appear to be either red or blue as both are a much lighter grey tone than both the black of the Swastika and the outer bands of the air defence tail band. So my WAG (Wild A** Guess) is that it is quite possibly Red or Blue 15 of either the 14 or 16 Staffel of JG 4. JG 4 were operating a number of Erla-built G-10s in early 1945, several of which are listed in the QM returns for the period. HTH Cheers Dave 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duncan B Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 My guess is also for an ERLA built G10, that photo of the port side would appear to show the ERLA engine cowl quite nicely. However on a cautionary note the photo from the Stbd side does show hints of the crank cover bulges on the lower forward cowl which the ERLA G10 engine cowls shouldn't have so make of that what you will! Are the ERLA G10's now not so clear cut as we thought or are we seeing something that isn't really there on one of those photos? Duncan B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LotusArenco Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 1 hour ago, Duncan B said: However on a cautionary note the photo from the Stbd side does show hints of the crank cover bulges on the lower forward cowl which the ERLA G10 engine cowls shouldn't have so make of that what you will! Could that not just be the oil cooler housing and bottom cowling hanging loose? Mart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duncan B Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 16 minutes ago, LotusArenco said: Could that not just be the oil cooler housing and bottom cowling hanging loose? Mart Looking at it again, yes it could be which would make sense. Duncan B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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