Simon Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 Hello everyone Just looking at some walkaround photos of Lancasters, and noticed that the elevators on the tailplanes seem to have an angled section at the outer end, where the corner has been removed: (image from Flickr, via this thread) Having wrestled the Airfix Lancaster II into submission, I see that the kit's elevators have squared off ends: The Revell Lancaster has the 'chamfered' edge - here's my Revell Dambuster Lanc: So, are there two versions of tailpane elevator? Simon 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72modeler Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 Simon, The elevators on all Lancaster variants, IIRC, have angled ends to allow for full rudder deflection without interference. See the link to a pretty good kit comparison for details. An easy fix, all things considered! Mike http://www.hyperscale.com/2013/reviews/kits/airfixa09007reviewmd_1.htm 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted October 15, 2017 Author Share Posted October 15, 2017 Thanks for the reply. An odd omission by Airfix, but as you say, and easy fix. I've done the Airfix Lancaster II without changing the tailplane elevators but as I'm now starting on their Lancaster III I'll make sure I amend them. Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stever219 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 Something else that Airfix "missed" is that most Lancasters had fabric-covered elevators, not metal skinned (look at the elevator on the 101 Squadron aeroplane in the photo above). This was a contributory factor in the only(?) production test-flying accident involving the type. During the high speed dive part of the flight the fuel dump pipe doors under the wing centre section tore off and struck the elevators, tearing the fabric. The airstream then unravelled the weave of the fabric, reducing elevator effectiveness to the point where recovery from the dive became impossible. The crew of four died in the ensuing crash. As a temporary "fix" two additional ribs were inserted between each of the standard alloy ribs: the fabric was laced to these in an effort to restrict any future tears to a smaller area of fabric, thereby hopefully obviating a repeat of this accident. I've an idea that metal-skinned elevators came in with the Lincoln and were retro-fitted to Lancasters remaining in service as and when the opportunity arose. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finn Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 Here is a manual on the Lancaster: http://www.avialogs.com/index.php/aircraft/uk/avro/lancaster/a-p-2062a-and-c-the-lancaster-manual.html scroll down to pg 153 to see the tail plane. Jari 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted October 17, 2017 Author Share Posted October 17, 2017 Thanks for the link Jari - that's a very useful document indeed. I particularly liked the diagrams showing how to lift a crashed aircraft on pages 123 to 126 - that would make a great diorama. Regards Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stever219 Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 On 15/10/2017 at 8:21 PM, Finn said: Here is a manual on the Lancaster: http://www.avialogs.com/index.php/aircraft/uk/avro/lancaster/a-p-2062a-and-c-the-lancaster-manual.html scroll down to pg 153 to see the tail plane. Jari Please have a shufti at page 381 which contains a technical description of the elevators: there is an annotated drawing a couple of pages further on. The fact that no mention is made of alloy-skinned elevators suggests that the scanned document is of wartime origin and has not been updated to reflect later modification states or build standards. Although not credited in my original post my reference is, I hope, impeccable: a chapter in "Lancaster at War 2" written by Sandy Jack who was "there at the time". I certainly don't dispute that KB899, NX611 and PA474 presently sport alloy-skinned elevators, but the one useable (relating to this discussion) photo of R5868 that I've found on the 'net strongly suggests that she still has fabric-covered elevators. This aeroplane was overhauled between service with 83 and 467 Squadrons, so mid-war, and despite having the rear fuselage windows either plated or painted over, or the entire rear fuselage replaced (apparently entirely possible) she retained her original type of elevator covering. As she flew little, if at all, post-war I suspect that it was not considered worth updating her when in-service aeroplanes would derive more benefit from the modification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigsty Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 On 15/10/2017 at 7:59 PM, stever219 said: Something else that Airfix "missed" is that most Lancasters had fabric-covered elevators, Not just Airfix, if that picture of the Revell kit is anything to go by. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stever219 Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 4 hours ago, pigsty said: Not just Airfix, if that picture of the Revell kit is anything to go by. Hadn't spotted that!😖 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPuente54 Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 My "Dambusters" B. III Special(Starter Set), has the 'squared off' elevators as well. But, as Mike pointed out; this is an easy fix. Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silberpferd Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 Hi all, If that could be of any help, here are a couple of pictures of one of the elevators from our Lancaster VII, NX664. Those were metal covered. Laurent 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stever219 Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 Thanks Laurent. '664 was a mid-late production aeroplane and was refurbished post-WWII for service with l'Aeronavale in the Far East so could have been built with fabric-skinned elevators which were replaced with metal-skinned examples during her overhaul. Did she come to you with all of her paperwork (flying & maintenance records? If so they might show her build standard and any modifications made during her service life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72modeler Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 Laurent- great photo showing the angled outboard part of the elevator! That's one serious torque tube, as well! Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mancunian airman Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 But the diagram on page 153 shows that the elevators are square edged what every they might have been covered with. Presume the manual was produced at the early onset of actual aircraft production. I suspect that the Mod. to give the elevator a 'tapered' edge came after the initial production of the aircraft so do we know when the Mod to change from square to taper came into being ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPuente54 Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 On 10/17/2017 at 7:25 PM, stever219 said: Hadn't spotted that!😖 Neither had I; until you mentioned it. Good eye for detail! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 Unless there was an amazing increase in rudder travel at an early stage, it is much more likely that the diagram was in error. How about the Manchester elevators? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junchan Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 On 2017/10/16 at 4:21 AM, Finn said: Here is a manual on the Lancaster: http://www.avialogs.com/index.php/aircraft/uk/avro/lancaster/a-p-2062a-and-c-the-lancaster-manual.html scroll down to pg 153 to see the tail plane. Jari Go to page 388 and you will find an elevator construction diagram which shows a chamfered corner at the outer trailing edge. Jun in Tokyo https://www.flickr.com/photos/horaburo/albums Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finn Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 As noted near the start of the manual it was scanned from a 1943 publication and at the top of most pages it gives when the page was amended, the one on pg 153 has Oct 1943 while pg 388 has Nov 1943. Plus when mods come in it takes time for them to be implemented, unless they are essential. The best bet is to look at photos : Jari Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silberpferd Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 On 18/10/2017 at 11:33, stever219 said: Thanks Laurent. '664 was a mid-late production aeroplane and was refurbished post-WWII for service with l'Aeronavale in the Far East so could have been built with fabric-skinned elevators which were replaced with metal-skinned examples during her overhaul. Did she come to you with all of her paperwork (flying & maintenance records? If so they might show her build standard and any modifications made during her service life. Unfortunately, all the paperwork concerning our plane's career has yet to be found in the french navy archives, and has probably been lost or destroyed. My friend conducting the researches managed to recreate most of her career using logbooks from former french aircrews. However, he has found paperwork from a few other french Lancs, but a lot is missing, sadly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted October 22, 2017 Author Share Posted October 22, 2017 This has developed into an interesting discussion. Does any preserved Lancaster still have fabric-covered tail elevators? Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hovering Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 G-George in Australia does. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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