RAF High Altitude Flight colour(s).

[occa]

Huh ?

I did not mention duck egg blue anywhere

 

Here are some differing tones of both colors tho:

(from the same site Beard posted)

Shades of Eau de Nil:

http://encycolorpedia.com/search?q=eau+de+nil

Shades of Cambridge Blue:

http://encycolorpedia.com/search?q=cambridge+blue

 

The first two in the Cambridge Blue link are US interpretations obviously ... these are actually blue, probably that's where the confusion is coming from.

[Beard]

19 minutes ago, occa said:

Just google images for eau de nil and compare the results with those of cambridge blue

 

A bit tired to get jumped at cause I don't support to reposted fantasies, sorry ...

 

19 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

Duck egg blue, eh?  That's still a long way from the green of Eau-de-Nil, which has no appearance of blue.  If Cambridge Blue had been "very similar to Eau-de-Nil", it would be Cambridge Green.

 

Before this thread decends into all-out war.

 

Occa, there is a similarity between Cambridge University's Cambridge Blue and Eau De Nil. The former is, to me, a lighter green, if that makes sense (I don't have great colour perception, just ask my wife).

 

Graham, I always believed that Cambridge Blue was a light blue and, perhaps, in common belief it is but Cambridge University use the colour that's above.

 

Anyway, none of this makes it any easier to decide what colour to paint my Spitfire in.

Edited October 16, 2017 by Beard
to correct spelling (stupid autocorrect).

[Vlamgat9]

Are you saying I am a Light Green and not a Light Blue?

[Smithy]

For reference and taking into account monitor differences, etc, this is BSC 381 (1930) No.16 Eau-de-Nil:

 

 

 

[occa]

20 minutes ago, Beard said:

Occa, there is a similarity between Cambridge University's Cambridge Blue and Eau De Nil. The former is, to me, a lighter green, if that makes sense (I don't have great colour perception, just ask my wife).

 

Graham, I always believed that Cambridge Blue was a light blue and, perhaps, in common belief it is but Cambridge University use the colour that's above.

 

Thanks for your voice of reason !

Some just seem to be out to argue against without looking closer.

 

Eau de Nil is also slightly greener to my eye, but the English version  of Cambridge Blue isn't a mere blue at all.

[Smithy]

I don't think anyone was arguing for the sake of arguing and I certainly wasn't trying to. Whilst Cambridge Blue is essentially the light pastel blue colour used as part of Cambridge Universities sporting teams, I was merely trying to demonstrate that Eau-de-Nil (the original 1930s hue) is not a similar colour. I thought that this could be useful information and stop any misinterpretations.

[occa]

Smithy I didn't even mean you with the 'jump' complaint

 

Vut since you're speaking against may I ask did you even take a look at the color chips in Beard's link and in my links above ?

And did you read Beard's posts ?

 

http://encycolorpedia.com/a3c1ad

^^ is this a plain blue or rather a green blue ?

 

And here same question:

https://www.cam.ac.uk/brand-resources/guidelines/typography-and-colour/pantone-pms-and-cmyk-references

 

 

[GordonM]

Having lived in Cambridge pretty much my whole life, including working for the university ‘Cambridge Blue’ is most definitely not blue! Possibly some of the confusion comes from Cambridge University Air Squadron, many aircraft seem to be shown as having light blue markings, perhaps the aircraft were painted with standard paints, rather than having paint specially mixed to match a fairly little used colour?

[Smithy]

2 minutes ago, occa said:

Did you even take a look at the color chips in Beard's link and in my links above ?

And did you read Beard's posts ?

 

 

Yes I did.

 

But what I was responding to was your assertion in posts #17 and #23 that Cambridge Blue was somehow a similar shade to Eau-de-Nil. The fact of the matter is that it is not. I am not making this up, this is an objective truth. At the time Eau-de-Nil refers to a specific shade of green which was exceedingly popular in the 1930s for interior design and is BSC 381 (1930) No.16 Eau-de-Nil.

 

 

[occa]

These are the variations of Eau de Nil given here:

http://encycolorpedia.com/search?q=eau+de+nil

 

The second and the third are close to Cambridge blue, both are BS colours ... the rest are not BS colours.

 

What you posted above is just a darker version of Eau de Nil, not that much different from the tone ...

 

 

 

 

 

[Smithy]

1 minute ago, occa said:

These are the variations of Eau de Nil given here:

http://encycolorpedia.com/search?q=eau+de+nil

 

The second and the third are close to Cambridge blue, both are BS colours ... the rest are not BS colours.

 

 

 

That might be so but Eau-de-Nil at the time we are referring to (1930s/1940s) refers to an actual specific colour. The others in the link above are later reinterpretations by paint companies with a view to naming new hues and colours for interior design. At the time there was only BSC 381 (1930) No.16 Eau-de-Nil and it was a very popular colour.

 

I'm honestly not trying to be combative but merely attempting to show you that if we're talking about Eau-de-Nil in a 1930s and 1940s context this doesn't relate to a range of colours but a specific one.

 

HTH,

 

Tim

[occa]

Where did you take that chip from btw ?

 

Here is the BSC color chip that I could find:

 

http://www.e-paint.co.uk/BS381 Colourchart.asp

Eau de Nil BS 381 216

http://www.e-paint.co.uk/Lab_values.asp?cRange=BS 381C&cRef=BS381 216&cDescription=Eau de Nil

 

Hardly an interpretation of a paint company or whatever

[Smithy]

1 minute ago, occa said:

Where did you take that chip from btw ?

 

Here is the BSC color chip that I could find:

http://www.e-paint.co.uk/Lab_values.asp?cRange=BS 381C&cRef=BS381 216&cDescription=Eau de Nil

 

Always difficult with colours on monitors - that looks too light and not green enough - but Eau-de-Nil is very definitely green not blue.

 

As an aside one of the bathrooms in the house my mother grew up in was painted Eau-de-Nil in 1936 and stayed the same until 1997.

[occa]

You are only judging from memory ?

 

Btw I could find nothing about BSC 381 16, only on BS 381 216

 

Again, where did you get the color chip from you posted ?

Did you just chose it from memory ?

[Smithy]

1 minute ago, occa said:

You are only judging from memory ?

 

Btw I could find nothing about BSC 381 16, only on BS 381 216

 

With all due respect you seem to be the kind of fellow who always has to be right and cannot take any sort of information which contradicts you.

 

I'll say one last time that BSC 381 (1930) No.16 Eau-de-Nil (please note these are the historical 1930 paint numbers) is a green shade and not blue and certainly not like Cambridge Blue. But I'm sure you won't believe me.

 

I'm retiring from this discussion as you obviously think you know it all about these colours.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Seahawk]

3 hours ago, Beard said:

 

I always thought Cambridge Blue was a light blue, rather than a greenish colour, and had the exact same conversation in my LHS on Saturday, but Cambridge University have it as:

https://www.cam.ac.uk/brand-resources/guidelines/typography-and-colour/pantone-pms-and-cmyk-references

I think you make a good point: you and your LHS colleagues "always thought Cambridge Blue was a light blue".  I did as well.  I believe (no, not scientifically proven) that 8 out of 10 cats in the street who gave a monkey's either way would agree with you: people will insist in using colour descriptions in a distressingly imprecise way eg the "duck egg blue" that would not lead you to pick Sky out of a colour palette.  We might also ask whether the Pantone 557C colour Cambridge University now use, in this era of branding and trademarking, is the same one as was in use in the 1930s/40s.  We might also note, from Wikipedia, that "there is considerable dispute regarding the exact shade of the colour that should be used. Most notably, the colour used by the Cambridge University Boat Club is different from that used by Cambridge University R.U.F.C.."

 

Working on the assumption (quite possibly unwarranted) that a standard MAP colour was used, I can see 3 MAP colours that are vaguely in the right ball park of either Pantone 557C or Cambridge blue as this man in the street imagines it: Sky Blue, Sky proper and Azure Blue.  Galitzine would have seen Sky before in his RAF career so it would not probably have led him to comment as he did.  I cannot rule out either Sky or Azure Blue but plump for Sky Blue in the absence of, IMHO, better candidates.  I agree with others that it looks extremely light.

 

Elsewhere in this thread there has been discussion of a possible Mediterranean variant of the High Altitude scheme using an alternative to PRU Blue on the undersides.  I think we should be clear, in case it turns up as established Internet fact in 5 years' time, that this is, AFAIK, pure postulation.  I'm with Graham: the stratosphere is the same colour in the Mediterranean as in the UK so why use a different colour?  I understand Graham (I hope correctly) to be entertaining the notion on the basis that aircraft required for High Altitude duties in the Mediterranean may have been painted (or repainted) in theatre.  Early in the war I would say that was not unlikely but I question whether, by the time Spitfire IXs were being turned out from UK factories in the High Altitude scheme, there would be any need or rationale for such repaints.  I would be interested in documentary evidence of such alternative underside colours for High Altitude aircraft operating in the Med area but, until such information emerges, for me at least it remains just a postulation.            

 

Edited October 17, 2017 by Seahawk

[Beard]

5 hours ago, Seahawk said:

I think you make a good point: you and your LHS colleagues "always thought Cambridge Blue was a light blue".  I did as well.  I believe (no, not scientifically proven) that 8 out of 10 cats in the street who gave a monkey's either way would agree with you: people will insist in using colour descriptions

n a distressingly imprecise way eg the "duck egg blue" that would not lead you to pick Sky out of a colour palette.  We might also ask whether the Pantone 557C colour Cambridge University now use, in this era of branding and trademarking, is the same one as was in use in the 1930s/40s.  We might also note, from Wikipedia, that "there is considerable dispute regarding the exact shade of the colour that should be used. Most notably, the colour used by the Cambridge University Boat Club is different from that used by Cambridge University R.U.F.C.."

 

Working on the assumption (quite possibly unwarranted) that a standard MAP colour was used, I can see 3 MAP colours that are vaguely in the right ball park of either Pantone 557C or Cambridge blue as this man in the street imagines it: Sky Blue, Sky proper and Azure Blue.  Galitzine would have seen Sky before in his RAF career so it would not probably have led him to comment as he did.  I cannot rule out either Sky or Azure Blue but plump for Sky Blue in the absence of, IMHO, better candidates.  I agree with others that it looks extremely light.

 

You make some good points there. Names can be misleading (my name is Beard but I don't have a beard) and the Cambridge Blue used today may very well be different to that used in the 1930s/ 1940s.

 

Most importantly, we're relying on Galitzine's recollection of the aircraft's colour and his understanding of the colour's name. Here's the quote from Spitfire At War 3, 'the aircraft was painted in a special lightweight finish, which gave it a colour rather like Cambridge blue'. (Note the use of 'rather'.) 

 

6 hours ago, Seahawk said:

Elsewhere in this thread there has been discussion of a possible Mediterranean variant of the High Altitude scheme using an alternative to PRU Blue on the undersides.  I think we should be clear, in case it turns up as established Internet fact in 5 years' time, that this is, AFAIK, pure postulation.  I'm with Graham: the stratosphere is the same colour in the Mediterranean as in the UK so why use a different colour?  I understand Graham (I hope correctly) to be entertaining the notion on the basis that aircraft required for High Altitude duties in the Mediterranean may have been painted (or repainted) in theatre.  Early in the war I would say that was not unlikely but I question whether, by the time Spitfire IXs were being turned out from UK factories in the High Altitude scheme, there would be any need or rationale for such repaints.  I would be interested in documentary evidence of such alternative underside colours for High Altitude aircraft operating in the Med area but, until such information emerges, for me at least it remains just a postulation.            

 

 

It was, on my side at least, just postulation. 

 

[Nick Millman]

Eau de Nil is a pale, sickly green colour. It was used inside vehicles and attracted the colloquial name "puke green". The current BS381 # 216 is successor to the 1930 # 16. They are exactly similar colours. The e-paint chip page linked above is good and shows all the necessary data to pin the colour down. BS381 gives the approximate Munsell value as GY - Green Yellow.

 

High altitude colours for day fighters were promulgated on 7 June 1943 and were included in DTD Circular 360 Issue 2 of 2 November 1943. Those specified that the colour of high altitude fighters in desert areas and overseas would be the same as for UK, e.g. Medium Sea Grey over PRU Blue. Whether that was complied with in full or altered by Air HQ MIddle East orders I don't know.

 

However there is the possibility of non-standard schemes because the same DTD required day fighters in desert areas and overseas to conform to the UK (European) day fighter scheme which led to confusion and schemes "churn" in Italy and SEAC during the following months. Also, and perhaps more importantly, there exist Air Ministry and RAF documents revealing that operational squadrons sometimes trialled non-standard experimental schemes and colours, some of which were not proceeded with to become official.    

 

For example the experimental high altitude scheme trials conducted at RAF Duxford involved two Spitfires (X4815 and X4816) successively painted in four test schemes as follows:-

 

1. Sky Grey and Olive Grey over Sky Blue (the upper camouflage colours were applied in the ratio of two-thirds to one-third respectively, e.g. there was more Sky Grey. The Olive Grey was said to be mid-way between Dark Sea Grey and Light Slate Grey)

2. Ditto but with light greenish blue under surfaces (the light greenish blue was a non standard colour said to be mid-way between Sky and Sky Blue)

3. Medium Sea Grey and Olive Grey over Sky Blue (the upper camouflage colours applied in the ratio 50/50)

4. Medium Sea Grey and Dark Sea Grey over Sky Grey (the upper camouflage colours applied in the ratio 50/50)

 

Sky Blue was preferred to the light greenish blue in the trials but ultimately none of the tested experimental schemes was proceeded with as RAE expertise intervened.

 

In the Air Ministry order for 'High Flying Day Fighter Aircraft' on 7 June 1943 it states that "No retrospective action is being taken in respect of high altitude day fighters which have already been camouflage coloured and marked", strongly suggesting the existence of preliminary and possibly non-standard schemes as no official instructions pertained. 

 

Nick

 

 

 

[Giorgio N]

2 hours ago, Beard said:

 

You make some good points there. Names can be misleading (my name is Beard but I don't have a beard) and the Cambridge Blue used today may very well be different to that used in the 1930s/ 1940s.

 

 

 

I'd suggest finding an original wartime SAS jump wings emblem, as these were in Cambridge and Oxford blue of the era in recognition of the colleges of which several of the original members were alumni (IIRC Stirling was a Cambridge boy while Jock Lewes was an Oxford Blue).

Then of course this information may well be useless, as even in those days each taylor may well have had a different idea of what Cambridge blue means... and this brings us back to the problem of using colloquial names whenever describing a colour.

And more, Prince Galitzine would have been well familiar with the colour carried by members of the various Cambridge college teams, so it may sure be that in his recollections he meant this colour, a colour that could be traced somehow. At the same time he may well have simply used a generic name used at the time. I'd probably consider the former option, but who can deny the latter ?

Personally I'd probably follow a very unscientific approach, that is think of Cambridge Blue in a general enough way and choose from the colours known to have been used by the RAF in those years the closer one. Based on this, I'd go for Sky Blue. It may be lighter than the "official" Cambridge blue (if one exists...), but it's not too different from a number of clothing items related to the College (and from several interpretations of the SAS jump wings...).

 

[Seahawk]

9 hours ago, Seahawk said:

  I understand Graham (I hope correctly) to be entertaining the notion on the basis that aircraft required for High Altitude duties in the Mediterranean may have been painted (or repainted) in theatre. I question whether, by the time Spitfire IXs were being turned out from UK factories in the High Altitude scheme, there would be any need or rationale for such repaints.        

Time someone took this geezer down a peg or two.  Rawlings: Fighter Squadrons of the RAF, 1st Ed, p.94.  Photo of Spitfire HF.IX JL226 "G" of 32 Sq, Foggia, Italy, 1944.  While the aircraft is in the High Altitude Scheme, the serial is on a block of a different colour, so the airframe has apparently been repainted, and that may well have been in theatre.  I shall withdraw under the convenient smokescreen provided by Nick Millman's injection of the fact that official documentation prescribed the use of MSG/PRU Blue for high-altitude day fighters in the desert and overseas as well as in the UK.

[Nick Millman]

3 hours ago, Giorgio N said:

 

I'd suggest finding an original wartime SAS jump wings emblem, as these were in Cambridge and Oxford blue of the era in recognition of the colleges of which several of the original members were alumni (IIRC Stirling was a Cambridge boy while Jock Lewes was an Oxford Blue).

Then of course this information may well be useless, as even in those days each taylor may well have had a different idea of what Cambridge blue means... and this brings us back to the problem of using colloquial names whenever describing a colour.

And more, Prince Galitzine would have been well familiar with the colour carried by members of the various Cambridge college teams, so it may sure be that in his recollections he meant this colour, a colour that could be traced somehow. At the same time he may well have simply used a generic name used at the time. I'd probably consider the former option, but who can deny the latter ?

Personally I'd probably follow a very unscientific approach, that is think of Cambridge Blue in a general enough way and choose from the colours known to have been used by the RAF in those years the closer one. Based on this, I'd go for Sky Blue. It may be lighter than the "official" Cambridge blue (if one exists...), but it's not too different from a number of clothing items related to the College (and from several interpretations of the SAS jump wings...).

 

 

Counter intuitively the current official Cambridge Blue is a green - or at least a Munsell Green - G, but it does look like a pale greenish blue. It is quite close to FS 34491 but just a little "cooler". At first glance it might be taken as similar to RAF Sky but when directly compared is actually very different being @ 9.25 to that colour standard where < 2.0 = a close match. Sky is significantly yellower and "warmer" looking. The closest BS 381 colour to it is 101 Sky Blue, not the same as the wartime RAF colour but exactly similar to the BS 381 1930 # 1 colour. Although of similar hue  that is darker and more saturated.   

 

The problem here, as others have observed, is that we don't know what Galitzine meant by "Cambridge Blue" or whether he knew what the "proper" colour was like (many take it to mean a light blue). It doesn't resemble any wartime MAP colour.

 

Cambridge Blue was described in the 1949 British Council Dictionary of Colours for Interior Decoration as follows:-

 

“This ‘Light Blue’ of the English University has from time to time caused some controversy. Cambridge Blue is supposed to be the same as Eton Blue, the latter dating from the fifteenth century, and being adopted by Cambridge in 1836. The story goes that an old Etonian of the Cambridge crew in the boat race of 1836 supplied the distinguishing colour which was carried by the cox, and the colour was adopted as a permanent colour for the University Boat Club. Probably some surprise will be occasioned by the colour here featured as Cambridge Blue (shown above), but it is matched to the coloured material supplied by the University outfitters and the Secretary of the Cambridge Boat Club, 1934, as supplied to and worn by rowing ‘Blues’.”

 

The colour shown there is deeper than the current colour, being a little lighter than FS 35299. It is more blueish than BS381 # 1 and #101 being a Munsell BG - Blue Green. The 6th Earl Cadogan, (1869-1933) another old Etonian, used the same colour for his racing silks so that it also became known as "Cadogan Blue". Therefore "Eton Blue", "Cadogan Blue" and "Cambridge Blue" share a similar appearance although there is variance in the way they are depicted in different media. 

 

I'll put up some rendered chips of the various colours discussed here at my blog on a FWIW basis. The description "special lightweight finish" might suggest a non-standard paint colour like the "light greenish blue" of the Duxford trials.

 

Nick

[gingerbob]

On 10/17/2017 at 3:26 AM, Nick Millman said:

In the Air Ministry order for 'High Flying Day Fighter Aircraft' on 7 June 1943 it states that "No retrospective action is being taken in respect of high altitude day fighters which have already been camouflage coloured and marked", strongly suggesting the existence of preliminary and possibly non-standard schemes as no official instructions pertained.

 

Or that could simply mean that (for example) Spitfire VIIs that had already been delivered in standard day fighter paint could remain in that.  However, I agree that a unit such as the "High Altitude Flight" would be quite likely to do some experimenting with camouflage.  (I thought the word 'development' was in that title for a time?  I don't have time to look at my records right now)

[Nick Millman]

29 minutes ago, gingerbob said:

 

Or that could simply mean that (for example) Spitfire VIIs that had already been delivered in standard day fighter paint could remain in that.  

Agreed, it could. But the very subject of this thread suggests that it could also be applied iro aircraft which had already been re-painted in non-standard schemes. Those reading it and already operating high altitude day fighters in a non-standard scheme could interpret it that way.  

 

Nick

[Mike Starmer]

The early part of this thread dealt with the possible use of BS. 101 Sky Blue and MAP Sky Blue in the Middle East.  Ron Belling in his superb book on the colours of SAAF aircraft in the Union stated that their Air Force applied a darker blue than MAP Sky Blue since it was unsuitable in that area.  As I write, I am in Pretoria under a clear, cloudless blue sky. as have most days here lately.  I can immediately endorse Belling's notes.  Both MAP and BS Sky Blue are definitely far too light as a concealment colour here.  For overhead at mid-day Light Mediterranean Blue would be the best compromise colour  on undersurfaces.  At a view  angle of 45 degrees at about 2 miles range maybe a little dark against the lightening sky, towards the horizon but the light reflections from the ground and haze easily cancels that factor.  

[Seahawk]

I envy you warm and balmy South Africa instead of a cold, wet and occasionally windy UK.

 

Think the only discussion in this thread of MAP Sky Blue was in the context of candidate colours for Galitzine's aircraft, BF/BS273 which was operating from Northolt, UK.  The MidEast angle was a speculative digression into conceivable rpt conceivable alternatives to the officially specified PRU Blue on the undersides of high-altitude fighters in the Mediterranean area.

 

I would have to say I cannot recall (and would like to hear of) MAP Sky Blue actually being specified for anything.

Edited October 18, 2017 by Seahawk