Waves

[hsr]

This is just a little nit, but I see all of these wonderful displays of waterline ships in ocean dioramas, and while the water has been sculpted into waves of various sizes, the ships are always perfectly level. Shouldn't they have a little roll or pitch to make them more realistic? I just read Norm Friedman's book Naval Firepower about all the work and devices to try and compensate for this, so I guess I am more conscious about it.  

[Ravens]

One of the best examples I've seen of a ship modelled as pitching in high seas is Kostas Katseas' RN Roma, it really conveys the weight and motion of the ship.

 

 

 

[Paul E]

On ‎14‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 7:49 PM, hsr said:

This is just a little nit, but I see all of these wonderful displays of waterline ships in ocean dioramas, and while the water has been sculpted into waves of various sizes, the ships are always perfectly level. Shouldn't they have a little roll or pitch to make them more realistic? I just read Norm Friedman's book Naval Firepower about all the work and devices to try and compensate for this, so I guess I am more conscious about it.  

I am going to take issue with your comment as an ex-seafarer, a ship designer engineer as well as a model maker.

You are correct that ships move in the sea, they pitch, roll and yaw just like an aircraft but these dynamic movements are determined by the ship manoeuvre and the sea environment as well as the ship physical characteristics.

But the beauty of the sea is its unpredictability, I have been around Cape Horn when the sea was like glass and yet entered into the supposed calm of Plymouth Sound with the sea breaking over the fo’c’stle.

Here’s a picture of HMS Somerset on which I was serving at the time in bad weather in the Mediterranean.

 

As you can see from the photograph she is practically upright and hardly pitching. The reason for this is that the sea in the Med has a relatively short wavelength also it is a snap shot in time when the ship was running with the sea. On any other course or speed the ship’s attitude would have been different.

And here’s another picture of HMS Phoebe on which I also served:

 

and my model, it may not be a great model but it does reasonably depict a similar scene:

 

My point is that there is no correct answer. I, like many others choose to model my ships on a calm sea and not manoeuvring in bad weather because it is simpler and easier to be accurate. In my view how a modeller chooses to display their model is a matter of personal choice and taste.

[hsr]

Paul,

 

I don't don't disagree with you, and your display is an excellent example of where ship and water are in sync. My comment is more for those dioramas which have beautifully sculpted waves, but the ship attitude is totally out of sync with those wave.

[Paul E]

1 hour ago, hsr said:

My comment is more for those dioramas which have beautifully sculpted waves, but the ship attitude is totally out of sync with those wave.

Ahh, now that is something different and I understand. It is also something I have noticed both good and bad but personally I would prefer to reserve comment on. 

[Andreas.R]

I display my waterline ships at calm sea, 

• the model is focused at the details 
• easy way to do

Here in Germany you can find a sort of glass called Kathedral, it is used for doors to reduce visibility,

and it has a wavy pattern.

You cut it to the needed size, spray the bottom with a blueish green, glue the model on with  white glue (when dried it should turn transparent)

 

 

 

with another type of cathedral glass

it may match 1/700 scale although the Minesweeper is Heller 1/400

Regards

 

Andreas

 

 

 

Edited May 9, 2020 by Andreas.R

[Chewbacca]

I agree with Paul.  Having spent over 10 years of my Naval career at sea, it is surprising how the ship and sea interact and how just with a slight 10 deg alteration of course in a heavy sea you can reduce the movement significantly.  I know the reason that I rarely model my ships in anything other than a sea state 1-2 is that the sea is more difficult to get right than the ship itself!  I do have one on the shelf of doom where I am bucking that trend.  HMS ALACRITY in 1/600 depicted in February 1984 while we were on passage from the Falklands to S Georgia in a Force 12.  Here's a photo of work in progress.  Eagle eyed readers will not that the model is in fact waterlined.  Don't worry, I've not gone mad.  This is an old part completed hull that I'm just using to test the fit in the seascape.

 

Edited February 16, 2020 by Chewbacca

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

Convincing seascapes are not easy, for all the reasons @Chewbacca & @Paul E outline.  Though I love Kostas Katseas’ models, the size of swell required to make a battlewagon pitch that much would be enormous.  It’s not impossible , certainly - the sea can reach genuinely awe-inspiring heights - but I actually think that Roma is one of his less realistic efforts.  Just my opinion; don’t flame me!  
 

[Paul, I’d say Somerset was going too fast for the conditions.  There are some famous photos of HMS Manchester taken from her Lynx in the Tasman Sea which earned her CO a “my office, no coffee” trip to see the First Sea Lord when she got home...]

[Andreas.R]

Hi to all marine enthusiasts,

 

here a good photo of a wavy pattern in real:

 

hope you get the right inspiration for your base.

Cheers 

Andreas

Edited May 9, 2020 by Andreas.R
new pictures

[Dave Swindell]

2 hours ago, Andreas.R said:

here a good photo of a wavy pattern in real:

 

 

Valid, but note that she's coasting with the engine stopped (no prop wash in the wake), probably no more than 4-5 knots, just enough for a bit of steerage. Wouldn't be surprised if there's not a pilot ladder rigged on the other side...

[Andreas.R]

41 minutes ago, Dave Swindell said:

Valid, but note that she's coasting with the engine stopped (no prop wash in the wake), probably no more than 4-5 knots, just enough for a bit of steerage. Wouldn't be surprised if there's not a pilot ladder rigged on the other side...

But you should keep in mind that the new container ships are designed to be very energy efficient, both in terms of hull shape and propeller.

[Andreas.R]

On 2/17/2020 at 2:01 PM, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

Convincing seascapes are not easy, for all the reasons @Chewbacca & @Paul E outline.  Though I love Kostas Katseas’ models, the size of swell required to make a battlewagon pitch that much would be enormous.  It’s not impossible , certainly - the sea can reach genuinely awe-inspiring heights - but I actually think that Roma is one of his less realistic efforts.  Just my opinion; don’t flame me!  
 

[Paul, I’d say Somerset was going too fast for the conditions.  There are some famous photos of HMS Manchester taken from her Lynx in the Tasman Sea which earned her CO a “my office, no coffee” trip to see the First Sea Lord when she got home...]

I agree with you, Kostas Katseas builds very impressive models, but this one of his less realistic efforts.

 

[Dave Swindell]

50 minutes ago, Andreas.R said:

But you should keep in mind that the new container ships are designed to be very energy efficient, both in terms of hull shape and propeller.

That's a Maersk E class, so getting on for 15 years old. Having spent best part of 30 years on box boats, with 10 as Chief Engineer, I'm fully aware of the efficiencies implied, and I'll stand by my previous comments.

[Jeff.M]

On 2/15/2020 at 3:47 AM, Andreas.R said:

I display my waterline ships at calm sea, 

• the model is focused at the details 
• easy way to do

Here in Germany you can find a sort of glass called Kathedral, it is used for doors to reduce visibility,

and it has a wavy pattern.

You cut it to the needed size, spray the bottom with a blueish green, glue the model on with  white glue (when dried it should turn transparent)

 

 

 

with another type of cathedral glass

it may match 1/700 scale although the Minesweeper is Heller 1/400

Regards

 

Andreas

 

 

 

Andreas,

 

That looks absolutely amazing.  I have checked, and cathedral glass is available in the U.S.  So, do you shape the underside of the hull to conform to the contours of the glass or does the white glue fill the dips in the glass so that you get a smooth and straight waterline?

 

Jeff

[Andreas.R]

Hello Jeff,

 

i do not shape the underside of the hull - it will be quite difficult to shape the curves (waves) 

Just use a few drops of superglue at the bow and aft, than fill the gaps with white glue.

After drying, the protruding white glue can be easily removed with a damp sponge.

The white glue must be water soluble and clear when dry.

Regards

Andreas